Test program- 3Dmark2001SE
(I was testing Directx functions)

AMD 3000+ Barton, Win98SE, all cards used same 3dfx driver. Motherboard is a rocking Epox with full hardware monitoring. The only cards that would report 4X AGP and 1.5 volt supply were the 4500/4800 AGP boards from 3dfx.

Everything else defaulted and locked to 2X/3.3v

Board | Interface | AGP mode | AGP volts | 2001SE

4500 32 MB,     AGP, 4X, 1.5 V, 4222 points
4800 64 MB,     AGP, 4X, 1.5 V, 4188 points
P-color TV,          AGP, 2X, 3.3 V, 4219 points
P-color L-card,  AGP, 2X, 3.3 V, 4253 points
5500 AGPx4,    AGP, 2X, 3.3 V, 3692 points
5000 AGPx4,    AGP, 2X, 3.3 V, 3059 points

4500 32 MB,    PCI,  2775 points
5500 64 MB,    PCI,  2769 points

For fun since the L-card was the firecracker of the group it was overclocked to 183 mhz, 4320 points was the outcome.

The dual chip boards were run twice to verify results, I'd say 3dfx drivers under SLI mode and Direct X are not so hot. The PCI cards really were pounded.

As you can clearly see the dual chip "4X AGP connector" cards are locked in 2X mode with 3.3 V AGP supply feed, running one of these on a modern board for any period of time would be very bad as they would fit but would be supplied the wrong voltage.

http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/albums/album81/vsa_group_shot.sized.jpg

A prototype 3dfx "L" board has been obtained and tested for AGP volts and AGP mode. It is a 3.3V part limited to 1/2x AGP so don't try running it on a modern board if you get one!

http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/albums/album42/l_card_large.sized.jpg

very interesting facts gary  :) thanks for your work

it's weird that the SLI cards perform so bad  :-/

wrote on 01.03.05 at 07:39:16:

it's weird that the SLI cards perform so bad  :-/

Well it is a synthetic benchmark and Direct X to boot, we all know under glide/opengl that a 5500 will tear up a 4500 pretty darn quick without breaking a sweat.

3dfx's DirectX drivers were not thought to be the best and there is rumor of 2001SE being biased toward Nvidia hardware..

I thought it was intresting the fastest was a AGP 2X 4500 all else being equal.

what about the Daytona 4200 ? is there a sense and a way to put it also in this list ?

or are the 3d problems to much to see it as a 3d accelerator card ?

yes a test of daytone will be also very interesting.

So that  explains, why is oschars card does not work anymore.

The interesting thing, is that the AGP cards are quite faster than the PCI cards, although the rumors says, that they are both using the same PCI interface and bus clock. (66 mhz ? )

Quote:

So that  explains, why is oschars card does not work anymore.

Exactly. Weird thing is that card worked fine daily during 3 months!

Very interesting to see like a single CHIP VSA-100 works better than 2 CHIPS VSA-100.  :o
What display settings did you utilize for the 3DMark2001SE? With my died card got 3300 points under 3DMark2001SE 32Bits 1024x768 with a PIV2.8HT.  

Regards,
Oscar

That's indeed odd, I could swear that in all Direct3D Applications, my Voodoo5 5500 64MB AGP always beat any Voodoo4 4500, never saw it the way around.

@gdonovan - hey Gary! You might want to try a benchmark with "GLExcess" or something similar... ;)

I don't know fo any good GLiDE benchmarking software? ???

Unreal 1 or Unreal Tournament (Intro Loop) is pretty good for Glide Benchmarking :)

or Turok2 ;) Also a nice Glide title ::) or the mission pack from Unreal Return To Na Pali :) there is also a 3rd party version for UT Operation Na Pali also great fun to test with and play ofcourse :)

wrote on 01.03.05 at 08:24:19:

what about the Daytona 4200 ?

I was just doing some Direct X testing of VSA-100 using 2001SE and verifing AGP modes and voltages, this wasn't a full blown benchmark session.

I do have a page up on the site with a page of benchmarks that was done months ago.

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/3dfx/bench.htm

wrote on 01.03.05 at 11:31:38:

What display settings did you utilize for the 3DMark2001SE?

640 x 480, 16 bit color.

Mind you I wasn't really checking performance- The point of using 2001SE as a Direct X title to check for graphic rendering errors under direct x , verify AGP modes and AGP supply voltages. I started with 2-3 cards just doing some general testing and the next thing I know a pile of VSA-100 boards were on the bench ;-)

One thing I did find out is I suspect the cards are hard wired for the operating mode and voltage as flashing one of the 1.5V 4500's to a different 3.3V bios had no effect. I'll follow up on that to be sure but that is what happened with one sample.

wrote on 01.03.05 at 12:28:54:

That's indeed odd, I could swear that in all Direct3D Applications, my Voodoo5 5500 64MB AGP always beat any Voodoo4 4500, never saw it the way around.

The test program one is well known to be negative bias in regards to Voodoo hardware, remember the real world vs 2000/2001SE article that was posted on Suidan hardware?

wrote on 01.03.05 at 14:06:46:

or Turok2 ;)

Turok demo is used on this page-

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/3dfx/bench.htm

wrote on 01.03.05 at 10:35:50:

The interesting thing, is that the AGP cards are quite faster than the PCI cards, although the rumors says, that they are both using the same PCI interface and bus clock. (66 mhz ? )

Regular PCI slots run at 33 mhz, at slowest setting AGP runs at 66 mhz. The AGP slot has twice the data transfer rate speed.

@gdonovan,

Not questioning your results using 3Dmark2001SE, but using d3d games my 5500 agp is usually much faster than my 4500 agp running on an identical system.

Games (d3d) I have set-up to run at nice fps on the 5500 would almost turn into watching a slide show sometimes if I put in the 4500.

See notes regarding "biased synthetic benchmark," vs. "real world applications" and "dual chip boards run twice to verify results"

The scores were of little concern to me, they were just a side note of intrest. I was looking for graphic glitches under Direct X rendering, AGP operating voltages and AGP transfer modes.

2000/2001SE are handy to use as a testing program for Direct X rendering since you can alter many settings with ease, as a benchmark I think it's a joke.

@ gdonovan,

Did'nt bother trying your 6000 ?

if you bench these cards please dump their bios! you said to me it is to dangerous to use them and you will not dump these bios but benchmarking is ok....

i don't understand you...

wrote on 02.03.05 at 13:22:06:

if you bench these cards please dump their bios! you said to me it is to dangerous to use them and you will not dump these bios but benchmarking is ok....

You inquired about boards that I already had, almost all these boards came in the last week.

I don't install boards just to to a bios dump, this was a quick new card testing for function session that turned into a bit more then I planned.

ok...but it would be nice if you try to dump bios from rare cards at the test from now on!
i hope this is possible....

And how about testing that Copper based Voodoo4 4500 PCI, how does that one work, can ik also do FSAA x2, if so what speed does it run at> heeh sorry Gary I'm just a little curious onthat Copper card ::)

As noted it does not function.

First post updated to repair broken picture link, add "L" card picture and information regarding "L" card AGP volts and operation mode.

so this 5500 AGP4x actually runs at 3,3v ? so perhaps of this reason oshkar destroyed his card?

so if i get one i should not put it in an Athlon64 Sys...

and gdonovan... nice scores ! was it the default bench at 1024x768? If yes, how did you get so much 3Dmarks... ?!? some driver tweaks like a low LOD?

wrote on 13.04.05 at 19:07:09:

so this 5500 AGP4x actually runs at 3,3v ?

Yes.


Quote:

was it the default bench at 1024x768?

I think I was testing at 640 x 480.

Gary, would you tell us the complete specifications of the system you ran these tests on and what settings you used in 3dMark2001se?

I'll have to double check but it's a Barton 3000+ on a KT333 Epox motherboard with 256 mb of PC2700 ram and Win98SE.

um  oshcar wrote that he destroyed his 5500 4X !? ... perhaps he used it in a new Mainboard with only 1,5V AGP.... (it would fit mechanically...)

Yes, he was running it on an Intel P4 platform.

how long did the card work?

i mean, instead of 3,3v the AGP port provided 1,5V... right? Lower voltage can also be dangerous? In what way?

You would have to ask Osckhar.

yeaps Osckhar mentioned that 1.5 volt kan kill 5500 AGPx4 cards, it happened to him once and if you want to know why yeah ask'n osckhar would be greatly adviced, remember it is a prototype and prototypes don't always perfect as production models they can go defect.

@TM30
Well, my card did work during 2 or 3 months without problem. It was running in a ABIT IS7-G chipset ¡865, just compatible with AGP4x and 8x. Sometime I had some random reboot. I thought that the problem was the SFFT Alpha driver. But one day the card did not boot more...
If you check the card with the Everest Home edition. You will see like the card just works to 1x and 2x. But if you try with a V4, you will see compatibility to AGP1x, 2x and 4x.  I have here 2 V5 5500 with NOTCH like AGP4x more, and both cards works just to 3.3v.

Rolo01 has a V5 5500 AGP4x too. But his v5 doesn't boot in a ASUS ¡865 or ¡875 chipset. Sloomy tried his V5 AGP4x in a ¡845 Board and worked well.

According Hank Semenec:

Quote:

Yes the notch means that 1.5V support is there. No, the card will not be destroyed when plugged into 4X only system. The IO voltage is sparated from 3.3V and takes VVDQ from the slot (3.3V or 1.5V). Mainly, V4 does run AGP 4X protocol, that is the only one! If the card is notched with 1.5V key then it will run. Hank

And now what?

Regards,
Oscar

Quote:

Yes the notch means that 1.5V support is there.

This is only "part" true.

The Powercolor VSA-100 boards have the AGP x 4 connectors but run 3.3V and AGP 1/2x ONLY.

You also have to remember the 5000/5500 AGP x 4 are prototype boards i.e. unfinished, unreleased products.

Quote:

You also have to remember the 5000/5500 AGP x 4 are prototype boards i.e. unfinished, unreleased products.

Gary,
Do you know why the V5 5500 AGP4x has not any NOT FOR RESALE tagged on the board? Seems to be like this card already was a product finished, right?

Oscar

well maybe it was in the stage that is was just finnished being made by a production machine and that it had to be sent to the lab for testen, just in that phase that it was waiting for transportation to the lab and that is where the cards get thier labels after testing.

wrote on 28.04.05 at 13:06:43:

You also have to remember the 5000/5500 AGP x 4 are prototype boards i.e. unfinished, unreleased products.

this is not true. i got mine from a guy who had this card purchased regularly. these cards are no prototypes... if they were prototypes, they would be marked as "not for resale"

1) I have one marked "not for resale" it's not uncommon for tools to peel the decals off because they think they are doing something illegal.

2) 3dfx was unloading a lot of odd cards at the end to try and generate cash flow, the IBM 4200 is suppose to be a prototype card modified for sale to IBM according to Hank.

wrote on 28.04.05 at 13:06:43:

This is only "part" true. The Powercolor VSA-100 boards have the AGP x 4 connectors but run 3.3V and AGP 1/2x ONLY.

just a little side note-it seems like this is not entirely correct,no-X has performed some test and this is the result:

http://www.3dfx.cz/voodoo4/powercolor_v4l_ek4_b.jpg

seems like only the "L" cards are 3.3V only..

osckhar's card functioned very well for 3 months....then it died...
a guy from voodooalert owns a v5 5500 agp4x too. his one worked on an A64 system...but only for testing...now he won't install it any more on a 1,5v mainboard....

wrote on 06.05.05 at 22:52:32:

just a little side note-it seems like this is not entirely correct,no-X has performed some test and this is the result: seems like only the "L" cards are 3.3V only..

Not true- The Powercolor 4500 "TV" card also runs at 3.3 volts and AGP 1/2.

Been there, own the card, tested them.

Agreed.

Several people have taken their 2xAGP 3.3V Cards and stuck them into Boards without AGP Voltage Protection circuitry.

As they observed them running apparently without Problems, they deemed their Cards compatible.

A fatal error, as the Cards or the Motherboards begin to die a slow death.

Having done this error myself and running a PowerColor Voodoo4 in a 4x AGP only System for about 3 days, I noted the Card's AGP Connector and the area directly around it became very hot as well.

On my ASUS Dual AthlonMP Motherboard (4xAGP only) with appropriate AGP Protection circuitry, the Board (luckily) did not even power up using the PowerColor Voodoo4, with the AGP Warning LED lit bright red.
Same thing happened when I put in a Kyro2, which I later found out was (without modifications) also 2xAGP 3.3V only, despite being keyed for 4xAGP...

There is a remote chance that certain Revisions of the PowerColor Voodoo4 or the "L"-Card actually might be correct 4xAGP Cards, but AFAIK there is no way to be 100% sure without proper electrical Diagnose functions.

wrote on 07.05.05 at 00:24:29:

AFAIK there is no way to be 100% sure without proper electrical Diagnose functions.

Which is why I love my Epox board with KT333 chipset so much- Full hardware monitoring and AGP voltage report *on the boot screen* with support for 1/2/4 AGP modes.

yep this board is great.

one of the best "voodoo boards" out there...

@TM30,

Quote:

this is not true. i got mine from a guy who had this card purchased regularly. these cards are no prototypes...

Well, I have a friend with a V5 5500 AGP4x with NOT FOR RESALE tags on the board!  ;)

Regards,
Oscar

It's needless to say that there are 5500 AGP4x-prototypes, show me one card which came out where there were no prototypes before. ;)

What I want to say: it is assumed that no card is sold before a number of prototypes were built because only with the help of prototypes you can identify problems which can't be recognized without prototypes.

hey Gary are you gonna do more VSA-100 and VSA-101 test with 32Bit Glide in UT 1999?

Cause it is possible to force 32 Bit rendering in Glide and OpenGL in the AM 3.1 R6 and R10 drivers, it might be an interesting thing to do.

wrote on 25.06.05 at 03:15:32:

hey Gary are you gonna do more VSA-100 and VSA-101 test with 32Bit Glide in UT 1999?

It's possible, if so it will be under Win98 though.

I'm planning on an updated testing suite with the Barton 3000+ plaform soon as part of the V6K FAQ page.

Quake 2 & 3, Serious Sam and UT were planned to be used along with one or two new titles. Jedi Knight I think was going to be one, had not decided on another yet.

I'll be away for a few days on a road trip with mates, see you all again in a few days.

go for Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy with patch 1.04, your Jedi training will start there , go for twin Light sabers, most effective, My advice,

May The Force Be With You, Jedi Knight ;)

Hi,

I have tried a MULTIMETER with some voodoo cards. I wanted to see the compatibility with 1.5V. Weird results!

V4 4500 AGP4x
(Not for resale tags)
Rev A0 3000
Multimeter= 0 (1.5V)

V5 5000 AGP4x
(Not for resale tags)
Rev A0 3700
Multimeter= 58.7

V5 5500 AGP1x
(Engineer Sample)
Rev A1 0900
Multimeter= 1 (3.3V)

V5 5500 AGP4x
Rev A2 3300
Multimeter= 58.9

V5 5500 AGP4x DVI
Rev A2 3300
Multimeter= 58.7

V5 5500 AGP4x (died)
Rev A2 3300
Multimeter = 56.6

ADDED:

V4 4500 Evilking4
Rev 1.0 0051
Multimeter= 62.5

V4 4500 No TV-OUT (unknown)
Made in China
0134
Multimeter= 0

Multimeter  1= 3.3V
Multimeter  0= 1.5V

Regards,
Oscar

Uhm, exactly how did you do this test - i.e. what test points on the boards did you use? ???

Also, what was the multimeter set to? ???

Remember that if we can't understand HOW you got the results - they might as well be scribbled on a napkin! ;)

In this topic I posted a tutorial.

My multimeter was set to 2000k Ohm. When I used 200 Ohm I got some strange results with an GeForce DDR. (Different number than 0 or 1. Fluctuating numbers etc.)

[edit]
I've tested a Palit GeForce 2 MX. It gave numbers like ~121, ~20 and ~0 (fluctuating) (I used 200 Ohm)

When setting the multimeter to 2000k Ohm I was fluctuating between 0.14 and 0.
I also noticed that results can be different if you put the needle on a different place of the backplate. (Most likely a little bit dirt on the plate  :P )
So make sure you have a good contact between the card and your multimeter.

well, if multimeter shows 1 this means there's no connection, if it shows 0 it means there's connection without any resistors.
If it shows some other numbers it means there's resistance somewhere.

I also agree, there are no resistors involved...
the 200 and 2000 ohm are just the measuring ranges wich you choose when measuring some element's/circuit's resistance and you choose them for better mesurement readings eg. when measuring 50ohm on 200 ohm range you get better(more precise) readings than mesuring it on a 2k range.
In our case we don't actually measure resistance but just a connection and for that case (seen in thandor's pic of the multimeter) we set the multimeter on that diode sign, wich is the best way to check the connection (it probably also beeeeps when connected, most multimeters do)
About the "1" on the display that happens when the resistance is bigger than the selected range eg. when measuring 3kohm on 2kohm range, or in our case most probably measuring infinite ohm on 2kohm range.

Simply put if the multimeter has a beeper I (mostly) never look into the screen of the multimeter

About good contact... it is THE first thing you have to od if you even want to start getting some useful results...

Also somethnig very important when measuring high resistances (if done incorrectly might alter results) if you really have to hold the metal of the probe (needle) with your hands make sure you touch just one at a time and that you do not touch something else on the card with the other, or even better do not hold anything besides the insulation on the probes (needels) That's because our body also conduces a bit and in case we "include ourselves in the circuit" results might vary a lot.

Hope I gave some useful info (and hope/suppose someone here does already know this stuff I wrote)
btw: I'm an electrician that's why I might have been a bit annoying with all this text

NICE tutorial! ;D

Clear description, st4r4m4m4.

I'm not good in electricity and that sort of stuff ;)

hey Osckhar, does the Voodoo5 5500 AGP Rev.A0 4499 work, yeah I'm aiming at the comdex 5500 AGP from 1999 :)

Because that is actually the only vsa-100 based card showed on that show, something some didn't know yet, the Voodoo4 4500 was actually a Voodoo3 3500 from compaq USA with a TV-out, and like Gary explained the Voodoo5 6000 2x2card, has no VSA-100's at all but instead 4 V3 3500 chips :), that is why 3dfx put those VSA-100 stickers on, so  am wondering if that Voodoo5 would really work.

I hope you could test it for me :) If this is too personal norries Os:) I undderstand.

@Obi,
My v5 5500 Engineer sample with NOT FOR RESALE tags, dated in the year 2000, week 9. It is a rev A1 and it is setting to 143MHz but if I am not wrong it doesn't work well. It has an early Bios 1.00A and has the SPOTS for DVI connection. Tonight, I will try the card and I will check if really the card works well. I will upload PICS from the card and box to http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/3dfx_collectors  ;)

Regards,
Oscar

I thought you had the 1999 comdex 5500 AGP, that's the card I meant really ;) that's a Rev.A0 4599, the card you mentioned now is the one made after it ;)

@Obi,
Can you put any PIC from COMDEX99 V5 card?

Oscar

this is the card you mentioned indeed a Rev.A1 0900:
http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/albums/album107/V5_5500_NOT_FOR_RESALE_UK_resaize.jpg

I meant this little critter the Rev.A0 4499, see the DVI traces above it's VGA ;):
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/article/991116/com_3_4.jpg

I wondered about the comdex 1999 5500 AGP with the DVI traces in it's PCB, it has AGP x2. does it really work, and if so, does it work at cores/mem 100Mhz?

Thanx ,
regards,

Ben Kenobi.

@Obi,
Nope, this is other early rev V5 card with NOT FOR RESALE tags. It is the rev 1900 A0. It was a gift from 3Dfx to an Editor (Hardware Reviews) from Uk.

My V5 rev 0900 A1 is very similiar to the utilized in the COMDEX'99. It also has DVI SPOT but It works to 143MHz.

Oscar

yeps, that's right Thandor the Dual head 5500 AGP is infact the comdex 1999 card but then the second VGA fitted, the comdex card would of then be followed by this design:
http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/albums/album202/V5_5500_AGP4x_DVI.thumb.jpg

yes I fixed that problem in my post, but then again, I still think that the 5500 AGP x4 with DVI would of been a better choice, cause nearly every high end card had a D-sub and DVI with the Dual head function like ATi and Matrox.

So your Rev.A0 1400 is this one has 2x 4.7 volt quills at the card's end:
http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/albums/album107/V5_5500_NOT_FOR_RESALE_UK_resaize.jpg

but what about this one,  is it a Rev.A1 0900 this one also has 2x 4.7 volt quills at the card's end:
http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/albums/album203/v5_5500_engineer_sample_reducida.jpg

it refers to this 1999 comdex model, the one pictured here below should be a Rev.A0 4599, it has no quills at the card's end but two black condensators., where and who has this card.
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/article/991116/com_3_4.jpg

so it's gotta be a Rev.A0 4999 .

Hmm, the Comdex '99 is probably older then Gary's Dualhead V5 5500 AGP. Gary's card has 2 coils.

So there is still a possibility that the Comdex '99 card didn't work. Although the cards must be brothers/nephew's in some way. (In other words, the Comdex '99 is not much older that Gary's card)

Or they removed the black chips and installed the coils manually ?  ::)

(Obi-wan --> Condensatoren --> Capacitors ;))

wrote on 06.07.05 at 21:35:56:

So there is still a possibility that the Comdex '99 card didn't work.

I suspect you are right since we know the other cards didn't work and based on the time frame.

The date on the back of the PCB is when the PCB was made, not the whole card was up and assembled

(they can be close but it should be noted)

coils please not 'quills' -  ??? ::)

what's a quill then? the same I thought :-X I think my english is deteriating ... 11 years of Australia, after that 15 years of The Netherlands, onwhich much explain my problem  :-/

I will use coils next time :)

the first ever Voodoo5 5500 AGP had Dual head:
http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/albums/album81/P3173152G.jpg

well this picture is the comdex 5500 AGP:
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/article/991116/com_3_4.jpg

there is always a bigger one of it:
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/hardware/features/voodoo5/v5_5500.JPG

By the looks of it, it does have traces, so maybe it has real Authentic 3dfx VSA-100's onit afterall.

I wonder what happened to it, really, it's one of my favourite Voodoo cards around.
So Osckhar's version of it :
http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/albums/album203/v5_5500_engineer_sample_reducida.jpg

is actually the modified version of the Comdex 1999 card, it has coils ;) instead of 2 square like condensators, so the 3dfx Voodoo5 5500 AGP 64MB comdex 1999 card is still out there somewhere.

after Osckhar's model the final product was meant to be like this Prototype:
http://www.3dfx.ch/gallery/albums/album107/V5_5500_NOT_FOR_RESALE_UK_resaize.jpg

so that would complete the 5500 AGP's past on how it was designed, the AGP x4 models were actually meant as updated models, for newer motherboards I think.

wrote on 07.07.05 at 16:34:45:

Hmm, interesting. Note : This card only got 1 coil

That's because the other is broken off/missing.

I doubt the Comdex board worked, 3dfx had problems getting single chip cards working at that point let alone 5500's.

the only what to find that out is to find it and take it for a nice price and then check if it does really work for the yes or the no.

But I'm wondering if it is still out there, yet it may be destroyed, that would be a shame, let's hope that it will pop up one day.

wrote on 07.07.05 at 20:47:22:

Broken off is a bit strange since the chip direct under it is also missing.

I did say broke off/missing.

If it was removed, it was a pretty sloppy job.

Hmm... Is it my new laptop or is the link broken to the pic above for a close-up?

well, that image link works fine for me.

Hi all, I thought about posting about the cancelation of my V56K project here, since it is a VSA-100 based card, I had too many complications and suffering mentally about the situation.

After the wierd days, I even thought about flying away from it all, I didn't relize a few things, and I think it's best for me to keep the Dual opteronDP 244 system for many things.

So I thought about the situation and selling the Dual Opteron wouldn't be wise at all because I'm unoccupied and 100% unopproved, in otherwords, work will be impossible for me, mentally I can't take stress and so on.

So what I have now... I must move on with it, I thought about Flight Simulator 2006, and the Dual OpteronDP 244 would be perfect for that simulator and other new titles.

So I think it's best to cancel the whole project, I am gonna feel sorry for my duallie it has cost me many years to save and build up and it does hurt at times. I have painted the case also and many don't buy it because of that and alot of my friends say that via MSN and on the phone.

I will keep you informed for any changes, but I won't think that will happen, just too many negative feelings.

So the moves I did were up and down to a worse problem. At least I kept you people informed, onwhich is very important to me to stay loyal to you all.

May the Force Be With You...Always,

Regards,
Obi-Wan Kenobi.