If you haven't heard some emails at England's East Anglia University's Climate Research Unit (CRU) were leaked (or hacked) recently proving the last 150 years of original World temperature data has been destroyed and changed to suit the Global Warming theory.  Also, real scientists/climatologists of the world (over 31,000 of them) are saying that Global Warming is a fraud and the data is cooked.

It's our Sun that controls our temperature, not man made carbon emissions.  Go figure!   ;D

http://minnesotansforglobalwarming.com/m4gw/

Unfortunately global warming is a real thing, whether it's caused by greenhouse gases or other natural cycles of our solarsystem/earth whatever.

Go tell all the icecaps in the world global warming is a fraud and see them magically grow back....not really lol, they are still melting at pretty alarming rates.

Yes, we have cycles of cooling and warming that lasts a few years or even a few decades.  We are in a global cooling phase right now, not warming.  These cycles have been going on for billiions of years.  This Global Warming idea is designed to setup a world tax on everyone and also to shutdown industries so that only the global elite will be in control of what's left.  The carbon tax (cap and trade) is designed to setup the Bank of the World and to bring in world government (global governance).

Stop believing all the propaganda that is being pushed on you and read through the lies.  BTW, the icecaps are still there.   ::)

PS - The Copenhagen meeting concerning climate change next week is attempting to cement the carbon tax scheme and world government.

PPS - The IPCC - the scientific group that is the reference group for the University of East Anglia is only 2500 people and most are paid off bureaucrats.  Only a handful are actually scientists.

razrx wrote on 02.12.09 at 19:10:46:

Yes, we have cycles of cooling and warming that lasts a few years or even a few decades.  We are in a global cooling phase right now, not warming.  These cycles have been going on for billiions of years.  This Global Warming idea is designed to setup a world tax on everyone and also to shutdown industries so that only the global elite will be in control of what's left.  The carbon tax (cap and trade) is designed to setup the Bank of the World and to bring in world government (global governance). Stop believing all the propaganda that is being pushed on you and read through the lies.  BTW, the icecaps are still there.   ::) PS - The Copenhagen meeting concerning climate change next week is attempting to cement the carbon tax scheme and world government. PPS - The IPCC - the scientific group that is the reference group for the University of East Anglia is only 2500 people and most are paid off bureaucrats.  Only a handful are actually scientists.

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner!

razrx wrote on 02.12.09 at 19:10:46:

Yes, we have cycles of cooling and warming that lasts a few years or even a few decades.  We are in a global cooling phase right now, not warming.  These cycles have been going on for billiions of years.  This Global Warming idea is designed to setup a world tax on everyone and also to shutdown industries so that only the global elite will be in control of what's left.  The carbon tax (cap and trade) is designed to setup the Bank of the World and to bring in world government (global governance). Stop believing all the propaganda that is being pushed on you and read through the lies.  BTW, the icecaps are still there.   ::) PS - The Copenhagen meeting concerning climate change next week is attempting to cement the carbon tax scheme and world government. PPS - The IPCC - the scientific group that is the reference group for the University of East Anglia is only 2500 people and most are paid off bureaucrats.  Only a handful are actually scientists.

Easy on the 'it's all a conspiracy' thing there buddy, I was just conversing, not having a go at you. lol

I'm pretty much a noob in climatology (is that even a word?) Just find it odd that for some reason the average temps go up instead of down like you say. You can say the ice caps are still there, but they have shrunk so much over the years that you can't really speak of global cooling can you.

LOL, what's that website all about man, I think some people have watched way to many Youtube conspiracy videos, next thing you know the Illuminati are being funded by Global tax so they can take over the world, oh noes!!!111  ;D


Quote:

In recent years God has been trying to remind us that He is in control of the weather not man. I don't know how many "Global Warming" meetings have been canceled due to winter storms. And don't forget when Newsweek came out in 1996 with their now infamous "Global Warming Cover", it hit the stands the same time as the "Blizzard Of The Century". Incidentally that's when they started calling it "Climate Change".

All you have to do is DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and keep an open mind.  You'll connect the dots.  ;)

www.wearechange.org
find your country in the list.

razrx wrote on 03.12.09 at 01:46:54:

All you have to do is DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and keep an open mind.  You'll connect the dots.  ;) [url=www.wearechange.org[/url]]www.wearechange.org[/url] find your country in the list.

Okay, read read and read, and brief summary is that the earth is actually warming up, but the debate is to how much we as humans add to that, and that's it's terribly overhyped as the earth has always gone through cycles of heating up, and that CO emissions increase happened hundred of years after that.

I'm not sure where you read we are in a cooling phase though.

The amount of CO we dump in the atmosphere is still worrying though, and I wouldn't be surprised it adds to the global warming.

Tim wrote on 03.12.09 at 09:09:10:

razrx wrote on 03.12.09 at 01:46:54: All you have to do is DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and keep an open mind.  You'll connect the dots.  ;) [url=www.wearechange.org[/url]]www.wearechange.org[/url] find your country in the list. Okay, read read and read, and brief summary is that the earth is actually warming up, but the debate is to how much we as humans add to that, and that's it's terribly overhyped as the earth has always gone through cycles of heating up, and that CO emissions increase happened hundred of years after that. I'm not sure where you read we are in a cooling phase though. The amount of CO we dump in the atmosphere is still worrying though, and I wouldn't be surprised it adds to the global warming.

We do put CO² in the air, but it's really a minute factor.

Here's a sample of the emails that were found.
http://torontochange.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=334

"The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.

Kevin Trenberth < trenbert@ucar.eduThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it >
------

I seem to be getting an email a week from skeptics saying where’s the warming gone. I know the warming is on the decadal scale, but it would be nice to wear their smug grins away.

Phil Jones < p.jones@uea.ac.ukThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it >
----

In any case, if the sulfate hypothesis is right, then your prediction of warming might end up being wrong. I think we have been too readily explaining the slow changes over past decade as a result of variability–that explanation is wearing thin. I would just suggest, as a backup to your prediction, that you also do some checking on the sulfate issue, just so you might have a quantified explanation in case the prediction is wrong. Otherwise, the Skeptics will be all over us–the world is really cooling, the models are no good, etc. And all this just as the US is about ready to get serious on the issue.

Mike MacCracken < mmaccrac@comcast.netThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it >
---

Ironically, the E1-IMAGE scenario runs, although much cooler in the long term of course, are considerably warmer than A1B-AR4 for several decades! Also – relevant to your statement – A1B-AR4 runs show potential for a distinct lack of warming in the early 21st C, which I’m sure skeptics would love to see replicated in the real world… (See the attached plot for illustration but please don’t circulate this any further as these are results in progress, not yet shared with other ENSEMBLES partners let alone published).

Tim Johns < tim.johns@metoffice.gov.ukThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it >
---

Your final sentence though about improvements in reviewing and traceability is a bit of a hostage to fortune. The skeptics will try to hang on to something, but I don’t want to give them something clearly tangible.

Phil Jones < p.jones@uea.ac.ukThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it >
---

Looks pretty good to me. Only one issue. In our discussion of possible participants in Bern, I think (someone correct me if I’m wrong) we concluded that the last two on the list (w/ question marks) would be unwise choices because they are likely to cause conflict than to contribute to concensus [sic] and progress.

Christoph Kull < christoph.kull@pages.unibe.chThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it >
---

Mike, I agree very much with the above sentiment. My concern was motivated by the possibility of expressing an impression of more concensus than might actually exist . I suppose the earlier talk implying that we should not ‘muddy the waters’ by including contradictory evidence worried me. IPCC is supposed to represent concensus but also areas of uncertainty in the evidence. Of course where there are good reasons for the differences in series (such as different seasonal responses or geographic bias) it is equally important not to overstress the discrepancies or suggest contradiction where it does not exist.

Keith Briffa < k.briffa@uea.ac.ukThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it >
---

The key thing is making sure the series are vertically aligned in a reasonable way. I had been using the entire 20th century, but in the case of Keith’s, we need to align the first half of the 20th century w/ the corresponding mean values of the other series, due to the late 20th century decline. So, if we show Keith’s series in this plot, we have to comment that "something else" is responsible for the discrepancies in this case. Otherwise, the skeptics have an field day casting doubt on our ability to understand the factors that influence these estimates and, thus, can undermine faith in the paleoestimates.

Michael E. Mann < mann@multiproxy.evsc.virginia.eduThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it >"

That site makes a bit more sense. I can only say one thing, thank goodness I'm not involved in any way or shape with this climategate.  ;D

What an absolute mess, well they got caught. It'd be very interesting to see what will happen in Copenhagen.  ;)

ITT: Reasons why I do not watch the news or pay any attention to politics/government.  (much happier that way not knowig of all the BS in the world)

rottentreats wrote on 03.12.09 at 18:33:42:

ITT: Reasons why I do not watch the news or pay any attention to politics/government.  (much happier that way not knowig of all the BS in the world)

Same here really.

Yes, stick your head in the sand.  That will fix the problems.  ::)

PS - when you don't know what you're talking about it's better if you just keep your mouth closed and listen, you might learn something.

razrx wrote on 03.12.09 at 19:44:33:

Yes, stick your head in the sand.  That will fix the problems.  ::) PS - when you don't know what you're talking about it's better if you just keep your mouth closed and listen, you might learn something.

Wow, no need to be rude there seriously, what's your problem all of the sudden. I choose not to care because there are more important things to worry about in my life. Well I do care actually, but that's a different story all together.

Seriously, there is no reasonable debate because people have got such a short fuse like you do, seeing things that aren't even there, as in, me not even being rude, just expressing my opinion why I choose not to follow politics. You are entitled to your opinion, me, after your last post, I'd rather not waste time listening to what you have to say.

Goodbye.

http://www.abload.de/img/bugwu6q.gif

razrx wrote on 03.12.09 at 19:44:33:

Yes, stick your head in the sand.  That will fix the problems.  ::)  PS - when you don't know what you're talking about it's better if you just keep your mouth closed and listen, you might learn something.

You are so awesome.  I hope when I grow up I can be just like you.  Oh wait, I don't want to be an arrogant canadian. (not worth capitalizing because of people like you)

PS - I see you have a fly problem... you should get that checked out. (you are stinking up the place)

http://www.abload.de/img/razrxhasanuglywife36ld.jpg

I see the usual suspect(s) violating the basic Forum ROE's but nothing new there... Good behaviour isn't for everyone it seems.

As far as I know, there are only three sorts of people when it comes to climate change :

1) People and organizations who profit massively from keeping everything "as is" for as long as possible, large scale industry members and their lobbyists. They actually care, but only about their profits. Cleaning up their production lines means investing money without any immediate profits and they hate that more than death.
Easy to understand (humans) but short-sighted and basically says "we'd kill the last tree, animal or human on the planet if there's money to be made with it".
Not too bright, not too f*cking bright... (good businessmen though)

2) People who precisely researched everything they measured and had it confirmed by hundreds of other scientists or verified their knowledge by other means. Whether CO2 is the holy grail or not in the end, climate research is "learning in progress" and naturally subject to some change over time. Absolute measurements however do not lie - climate simply is changing dramatically.
Arguably, the planet doesn't care a bit... humans however should, if given the choice.
Personally, I'd say it's too late to avoid what's coming however, looking at the level of improvements.

3) Those that simply don't care. Too busy with their own tiny existence I guess, be it by stress or just a very range-limited horizon. Consequently, even basic humanitarian approaches simply fail them.
But since there's no law prohibiting to be ignorant, nothing really further could be held against them. Technically, they're legal.

---------------------------------

On the Hacked Emails and such :
They're out, have been analyzed and revealed.... nothing new.

The fact that scientists also have to "sell" their findings and harden them against lobbyism in adequate ways isn't surprising nor new.
If all they did was to publish science newsletters, most people wouldn't even know about climate issues. That's the way things are. Despite the majority of people now having almost unlimited access to worldwide information (a billion times more knowledge available to them than a mere 25 years ago), the percentage of them who actually invest time and actively research information is still frightening low.
Knowledge about their surrounding planet has become an increasing dividing line it seems, otherwise it's unexplainable why some still have no clue while their very neighbour (literally) may have in-depth, hard information at the same time.

Good post, except for the last paragraph.

The reason most people do not care anymore is because they actually can see through politics and the mess it is and choose to ignore most of it all together. It's got nothing to do with range limited horizon, ignorance and such, simply people have had enough of politics all together. This climategate is just another reason why politics are an absolute waste of time. Humans cannot rule themselves, every single form of government, whether it's democracy, communism, dictatorism etc has terribly failed.

And to say that even basic humanitarian approaches simply fail people that do not meddle in politics is simply too ludicrous for words, by saying that you are just tarnishing everybody with the same brush. Similarly, most politicians do exactly that, not a big surprise then that when politicians talk, most people ignore them.

I believe "man made" global warming is just a ploy. To mainly gain control by scaring people, and forcing certain beliefs on the population by passing laws etc etc.

Lets look at how many billions of years of years the Earth has been around. To think that we as humans started churning out co2 at a high rate about 100 years ago. Then to think that we could actually have that sort of impact is giving us waaay too much credit.

Whatever is happening as far as temperatures on Earth is going to happen. Whether we are here or not.

As far as people saying politics suck and its not worth worrying about. I actually agree. The problem is that its funny. I do worry about money. The government has a knack for taking hard earned money and using it in ways that it has no right to. This is in the u.s. of course.

I have to get off my soap box. I can feel my blood pressure spiking thinking about this stuff.

Michael Crichton makes my case for me, a long read but well worth it.

http://www.crichton-official.com/speech-ourenvironmentalfuture.html#

*man made global warming* is a farce, nothing more than a money grab.

"In the intro to one of his Jurassic novels, Crichton spoke of the arrogance of mankind to think we can change the planet's environment, be it weather-related, earthquakes, tsunami's, meteor strikes or ice ages, which have come and gone many times over the millenia. Mankind wasn't around to melt the mile-thick ice that covered the Northern hemisphere, yet the ice comes and goes, again and again. George Carlin said it best, recycling your soda can won't stop ice ages, pole reversals, axis recession, or global climate changes. The Earth was around before mankind was a twinkle in pond scum's eye, and will be circling the Sun long after all life on this planet is gone. "

There are many things that can be laid at mankinds feet, I doubt radical weather change is one of them ;-)

I'm all for practical & smart energy policy (If it were up to me there would not be a single coal or gas fired plant in the US making electric!) but the "greens" are more interested in saying no to everything than actually doing something constructive.

@ Tim - Stop flip flopping, first you talk like you are uninformed, then after rotten's statement, you come off like you don't care or pay attention.  Now you state that you do care.  Which one is it?  That is what is so frustrating, when talking to you. 

@sb306 - The way politics goes it does get tiring... however keep in mind that, "A government that is afraid of it's people is democracy, but a people that is afraid of it's government is tyranny."  Also, there is a new TV show on TruTV (formerly CourtTV) called Conspiracy Theory hosted by former Minnesota governor Jesse Ventura.  The first episode was on H.A.A.R.P (very interesting!).  The series is only seven episodes as the series is just being aired.  Its on Wednesday evening around 10pm Eastern.

@ Falconfly - you've certainly done your homework!  :)

@ gdonovan - good points.  Only one thing is that coal is actually a much cleaner burning fuel these days.  The reason why the oil industry wants to shut down the coal industry is that there is no monopoly or duopoly in the coal industry.  So the banksters who own the oil companies want to shut the coal industry down.

razrx wrote on 04.12.09 at 16:38:45:

@ Tim - Stop flip flopping, first you talk like you are uninformed, then after rotten's statement, you come off like you don't care or pay attention.  Now you state that you do care.  Which one is it?  That is what is so frustrating, when talking to you.

Flip flopping? lol, I care about global warming, I don't care about politics, and their involvement with this whole scam.


Quote:

Reasons why I do not watch the news or pay any attention to politics/government.  (much happier that way not knowig of all the BS in the world)

I agreed with this statement, that I do not follow news or politics much cuz it's most of the same rubbish if it's not depressing. Next thing I get told to shut up, get my head out of the sand and pay attention. Freaking hell seriously.

You can have your little debate here.

Governement/politics & the Environment are no longer homogenous topics, since the Governement realizes they can control and tax the people through Environmental issues.

razrx wrote on 04.12.09 at 18:44:23:

Governement/politics & the Environment are no longer homogenous topics, since the Governement realizes they can control and tax the people through Environmental issues.

I will try and explain it once more.

If I didn't care about global warming, I wouldn't be posting in this thread. Ofcourse politics is now very much part of it, but does it make me like politicians? Does it make me want to watch, research politics? No of course not. Unfortunately, most news is based around politics and it's highly annoying, therefor I prefer to let most of the political discussion to just pass me by without paying much attention to it.

So don't jump down my throat for having an opinion on poitics please. This whole debacle makes me hate politics even more. Sorry for feeling that way!

Also note that I do not have the same stance Rottentreats has, who doesn't seem to bother about anything but himself, well atleast it sometimes seems like he doesn't. And I certainly do not agree with that, nor his derogatory comments towards you even though you did get on my nerves a bit.

*hugs*  :)

These topics are all highly emotional.  Sorry for pushing my opinion on you.  I just feel that, when you throw out the original weather data records, you have to be somewhat suspicious.

razrx wrote on 04.12.09 at 19:22:50:

*hugs*  :) These topics are all highly emotional.  Sorry for pushing my opinion on you.  I just feel that, when you throw out the original weather data records, you have to be somewhat suspicious.

*hug back*

No problem, these things do raise the bloodpressure a lot.  :)

http://www.abload.de/img/kermit_fap4bcx.gif

rottentreats wrote on 04.12.09 at 22:37:56:

http://www.abload.de/img/kermit_fap4bcx.gif

LOL sorry, I had to laugh at that one. Makes you wonder what the puppeteer was doing at the time.   :o

I'm going to stay out of the global warming debate however I believe we should be pushing more towards electric cars or anything that's not petroleum based and this is why I believe so. It's a little off subject but it does kind of relate to the same thing in a general sense.

When I take my daughter to my parents to go swimming in the lake and at the end of the dock all you see is a rainbow color crawling across the top of the water from gas that's been drained into it from the roads after it's rained, I'd rather just put her in a kiddy pool and tell her to deal with it. I'm not putting her in that.

Regardless of global warming or not, at least in my area, some of the ponds, rivers, lakes are flat out disgusting with how much crap is in them. That's not even mentioning what's in the drinking water.

If anyone has driven from Milwaukee to Chicago on 894 (I think that's it) or on any of the major freeways (and that's just freeways) you'd see what I'm talking about. There's crap all over the place.

The planet may not be over heating because of stuff that we are doing but the water sure isn't getting any cleaner because of it. How many years was the Exon spill that Alaska is still seeing side effects from?

Either way, I think we do need to do something. Global warming I might not be able to tell the difference of, but old tires sticking out of ponds, gas floating on lakes and frogs with two heads and five legs I can see.

Well, that's a rather harmless animation indeed ;)

Anyway, just like any big/global topic, discussion is likely to be heated.

Besides :
Global warming isn't actually "politics". It just happens along and doesn't care about humans nor their politics.
Not sure if it helps our problem, but nature isn't something that could be invited to diplomatic talks or such. That's what makes people go at each other, since this time, there's no easy "other" to blame and unload the burden of corrective action.

FalconFly wrote on 05.12.09 at 11:06:28:

Global warming isn't actually "politics". It just happens along and doesn't care about humans nor their politics.

And chances are anything we do to "correct" it will cause even further damage.

The Earth as a system is far to complex for us to even comprehend, let alone start trying to fool about with.

Common sense goes a long way, but mentioning politics and common sense in the same breath is sort of an oxymoron like "jumbo shrimp"

This episode aired last week.  The host is the ex Governor of Minnesota, ex US Navy Seal and ex pro wrestler.  This is the third episode so far on TruTV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOYwur6T6tc&annotation_id=annotation_157582&feature=iv

razrx wrote on 22.12.09 at 21:19:35:

This episode aired last week.  The host is the ex Governor of Minnesota, ex US Navy Seal and ex pro wrestler.  This is the third episode so far on TruTV.

I like Jessie, he is a bit of a crank at times though.

razrx wrote on 22.12.09 at 21:19:35:

This episode aired last week.  The host is the ex Governor of Minnesota, ex US Navy Seal and ex pro wrestler.  This is the third episode so far on TruTV. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOYwur6T6tc&annotation_id=annotation_157582&feature=iv

I just can't believe governments get away with this. There are some mighty important people behind this scam and pull the strings in this world. So easy to brainwash people.

About the youtube video.

Even though they raise good points, and I find it very interesting and true, but can people who believe in global warming possibly take a youtube video like that serious? I sounds like a bad B movie, complete with whisper talk, silly voiceover, shaky cam behind waving grass, and pony tailed ex pro wrestler. Might as well have Hulk Hogan there together with Mr. T.

And what's up with the staged argument at the table. Lets find the scientist who is hiding in the wilderness afraid for his life!!  :-?

Most documentaries on conspiracy theories are exactly the same, why. Maybe it works for some, but not for me.