3dfx Archive - The cards that use TSOP86 ram

goriath

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Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram
Reply #15 - 04.12.13 at 00:21:18

ultima wrote on 03.12.13 at 22:25:52:

Komponent wrote on 03.12.13 at 20:29:55:

Modding with 32Mb chips was already tried with no luck:
http://www.falconfly.de/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1364630437/60

That means that a 6000 can only achieve 256MB max, right?!

But what about those quantum3d cards with 512MB, how many ram spots do those have?? I would guess 8 vsa-100 chips with 64MB per chip.

Looking at the picture of an 8164 it has 64 ram spots with8MB modules, so in theory it could be modded with 32MB chips, because it has all the required ram channels, as the 4500 does, right? Or am I missing something??
If true it could make a 2GB 8164 card a possibility, right??

I didn't remember the topic about a 32MB mod, thanks Komponent.

Well, according to that find, yes, a Voodoo5 6000 would stick to 256MB MAX.

On AA5 boards every VSA-100 has 8 RAM spots MAX (4 on the front, 4 on the back), 64MB (8x8MB) MAX per VSA-100, 512MB in total. You could replace 8MB RAM with 16MB RAM and reach, as for the Voodoo4, 128MB per VSA-100 (1024MB on board MAX). As far as I understand 32MB chip density is simply not handleable at the moment, the verdict isn't clear yet. And I don't think it's a matter of how many RAM spots you have available.

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RaptorZX3 Full Member Offline Canadian 3DFX user Posts: 218 Montreal, Quebec (Canada) Gender:	Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram Reply #16 - 04.12.13 at 01:37:08 ok i found 2 cards which seem to have a high density of pins for the RAM, in my box: -ATI Radeon "R6" SDR 32mb PCI -Matrox G4+M4A32DG AGP here are 2 pictures (click for a larger picture): here's the obligatory question: are they TSOP86 RAM chips?
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goriath

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Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram
Reply #17 - 04.12.13 at 03:00:32

Yep, good job indeed.

Those from ATi card are Micron 5.5ns 86TSOP-II: http://download.micron.com/pdf/datasheets/dram/sdram/64MSDRAMx32.pdf

Those from Matrox card are Samsung 6ns 86TSOP-II: http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/SamsungElectronic/mXxqwrz.pdf

Both are 512K x 32bit x 4 Banks or 64Mb (8MB per chip).

Another card known to mount the right kind of RAMs is the Asus V7100.

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« Last Edit: 04.12.13 at 03:00:54 by goriath »

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RaptorZX3 Full Member Offline Canadian 3DFX user Posts: 218 Montreal, Quebec (Canada) Gender:	Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram Reply #18 - 04.12.13 at 04:50:58 i had a V7100 at the time, Geforce2 MX without A/V out (it was like 20-30$ more with one, so...), 32mb, AGP. Though i do have one here, it's a V7100PRO 64M. (2m x 32) pictures:
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RaptorZX3 Full Member Offline Canadian 3DFX user Posts: 218 Montreal, Quebec (Canada) Gender:	Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram Reply #19 - 04.12.13 at 08:29:37 i think i found another card with TSOP86 memory, it's a Riva TNT2 M64 16mb AGP, 2 x 8mb on it...so far no luck for 16mb chips... it's the Compaq kind, model number "180-P0009-0000-C03"
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ultima

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Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram
Reply #20 - 04.12.13 at 09:25:27

goriath wrote on 04.12.13 at 00:21:18:

ultima wrote on 03.12.13 at 22:25:52:

Komponent wrote on 03.12.13 at 20:29:55:

Modding with 32Mb chips was already tried with no luck:
http://www.falconfly.de/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1364630437/60

That means that a 6000 can only achieve 256MB max, right?!

But what about those quantum3d cards with 512MB, how many ram spots do those have?? I would guess 8 vsa-100 chips with 64MB per chip.

Looking at the picture of an 8164 it has 64 ram spots with8MB modules, so in theory it could be modded with 32MB chips, because it has all the required ram channels, as the 4500 does, right? Or am I missing something??
If true it could make a 2GB 8164 card a possibility, right??

I didn't remember the topic about a 32MB mod, thanks Komponent.

Well, according to that find, yes, a Voodoo5 6000 would stick to 256MB MAX.

On AA5 boards every VSA-100 has 8 RAM spots MAX (4 on the front, 4 on the back), 64MB (8x8MB) MAX per VSA-100, 512MB in total. You could replace 8MB RAM with 16MB RAM and reach, as for the Voodoo4, 128MB per VSA-100 (1024MB on board MAX). As far as I understand 32MB chip density is simply not handleable at the moment, the verdict isn't clear yet. And I don't think it's a matter of how many RAM spots you have available.

I read through the post and seems that the 32MB per chip doesn't work, but what about the 16MB chips piggybacking? Didn't see any conclusive answer about that.

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RaptorZX3 Full Member Offline Canadian 3DFX user Posts: 218 Montreal, Quebec (Canada) Gender:	Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram Reply #21 - 04.12.13 at 10:03:54 so it's easier to mod a V4500 since they already have empty RAM sockets? so putting 8mb on those cards whould be good for 64mb. Does that mean that if i get a V4500 someday, i could use those 8 x 8mb RAM from my V7100Pro to get a 64mb V4500 instead?
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goriath

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Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram
Reply #22 - 04.12.13 at 15:12:09

RaptorZX3 wrote on 04.12.13 at 04:50:58:

i had a V7100 at the time, Geforce2 MX without A/V out (it was like 20-30$ more with one, so...), 32mb, AGP.

Though i do have one here, it's a V7100PRO 64M. (2m x 32)...

Indeed, right RAMs and very fast.

ultima wrote on 04.12.13 at 09:25:27:

goriath wrote on 04.12.13 at 00:21:18:

ultima wrote on 03.12.13 at 22:25:52:

Komponent wrote on 03.12.13 at 20:29:55:

Modding with 32Mb chips was already tried with no luck:
http://www.falconfly.de/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1364630437/60

That means that a 6000 can only achieve 256MB max, right?!

But what about those quantum3d cards with 512MB, how many ram spots do those have?? I would guess 8 vsa-100 chips with 64MB per chip.

Looking at the picture of an 8164 it has 64 ram spots with8MB modules, so in theory it could be modded with 32MB chips, because it has all the required ram channels, as the 4500 does, right? Or am I missing something??
If true it could make a 2GB 8164 card a possibility, right??

I didn't remember the topic about a 32MB mod, thanks Komponent.

Well, according to that find, yes, a Voodoo5 6000 would stick to 256MB MAX.

On AA5 boards every VSA-100 has 8 RAM spots MAX (4 on the front, 4 on the back), 64MB (8x8MB) MAX per VSA-100, 512MB in total. You could replace 8MB RAM with 16MB RAM and reach, as for the Voodoo4, 128MB per VSA-100 (1024MB on board MAX). As far as I understand 32MB chip density is simply not handleable at the moment, the verdict isn't clear yet. And I don't think it's a matter of how many RAM spots you have available.

I read through the post and seems that the 32MB per chip doesn't work, but what about the 16MB chips piggybacking? Didn't see any conclusive answer about that.

Piggybacking is also possible, but if 32MB per chip doesn't work I don't see why stacking RAMs to reach the same density could work as well. Anyway, piggybacking is a very hard technique. In this case extremely difficult since pins are very close together and for this reason very prone to unsuccess. Another thing you should consider is that stacking RAMs together could increase final latency.

Really, I don't see any reason to put more than 64MB per VSA-100, memory amount which the Napalm was designed for.

RaptorZX3 wrote on 04.12.13 at 10:03:54:

so it's easier to mod a V4500 since they already have empty RAM sockets? so putting 8mb on those cards whould be good for 64mb.

Does that mean that if i get a V4500 someday, i could use those 8 x 8mb RAM from my V7100Pro to get a 64mb V4500 instead?

Yes, but I agree with Oscar when he says is better to use new RAMs solder-ready. When you desolder the ram from the donor you heat stress the chip and then one more time when you have to solder them on the target card. Moreover, since the RAM chip isn't "clean" there are chances that you get shorts when you solder the chip again.

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ultima

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Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram
Reply #23 - 04.12.13 at 15:42:46

Piggybacking is also possible, but if 32MB per chip doesn't work I don't see why stacking RAMs to reach the same density could work as well. Anyway, piggybacking is a very hard technique. In this case extremely difficult since pins are very close together and for this reason very prone to unsuccess. Another thing you should consider is that stacking RAMs together could increase final latency.

Really, I don't see any reason to put more than 64MB per VSA-100, memory amount which the Napalm was designed for.

Quote:

RaptorZX3 wrote on Today at 9:03am:

so it's easier to mod a V4500 since they already have empty RAM sockets? so putting 8mb on those cards whould be good for 64mb.

Does that mean that if i get a V4500 someday, i could use those 8 x 8mb RAM from my V7100Pro to get a 64mb V4500 instead?

Yes, but I agree with Oscar when he says is better to use new RAMs solder-ready. When you desolder the ram from the donor you heat stress the chip and then one more time when you have to solder them on the target card. Moreover, since the RAM chip isn't "clean" there are chances that you get shorts when you solder the chip again.

Well, if I look at the post and see that the V4 4500 did a test run with 64MB @ 1600x1024 and 2xFSAA and scored 3xx and with 128MB it scored well over 800. Still a crappy score, but the increase due to ram increase is pretty damn good.
It is being hindered by the 33Mhz pci bus and his slow CPU (XP1900+), both of which I don't suffer from, seeing as I have a 66Mhz PCI slot waiting for it and an XP-M3000 clocked at 2.4Ghz, so if it would be possible....why not, maybe 4xFSAA will run decently then Cheesy

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« Last Edit: 04.12.13 at 15:43:45 by ultima »

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Komponent

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Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram
Reply #24 - 04.12.13 at 16:04:44

goriath wrote on 04.12.13 at 15:12:09:

Really, I don't see any reason to put more than 64MB per VSA-100, memory amount which the Napalm was designed for.

Even I don't see a point into it and I did it already... Grin

Voodoo4 with 128Mb is incompatible with the huge majority of motherboards I tried to test it with. It does work with S2466, but in normal operation virtually shows no performance increase over V4 64Mb and after a long, long search I have found not one game that will start on it bun not run on a 64Mb Voodoo4, because games that require 128Mb video memory also need pixel shader. Also if something runs like crap on 64Mb, 128Mb sure won't make it playable.
It's pointless, VSA100 has no power to need 128Mb. I did it just as an experiment to see if I can do it, but still have hope to find one day a software that will start on 128Mb but not on 64Mb just for the fun of it. Cheesy

64Mb versus 32Mb is another story. Games that do require it to run, clear boost in performance.

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goriath

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Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram
Reply #25 - 04.12.13 at 16:19:25

BTW, I didn't want to offend you or say that you shouldn't have modding the card Undecided

I see no reasons to going into troubles for a mod that don't pay off the efforts, that's all.

But if the goal is simply fun and research I am always very much interested since the best thing of practicing this stuff is to learn something new.

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Komponent Senior Member Offline 3dfx modder Posts: 282	Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram Reply #26 - 04.12.13 at 18:44:51 I only do it for fun. I can count on the fingers of only one hand the number of clients that in about 10 years have ever payed me any money to mod cards for them. No offense taken
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RaptorZX3

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Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram
Reply #27 - 04.12.13 at 22:36:04

ultima wrote on 04.12.13 at 15:42:46:

Piggybacking is also possible, but if 32MB per chip doesn't work I don't see why stacking RAMs to reach the same density could work as well. Anyway, piggybacking is a very hard technique. In this case extremely difficult since pins are very close together and for this reason very prone to unsuccess. Another thing you should consider is that stacking RAMs together could increase final latency.

Really, I don't see any reason to put more than 64MB per VSA-100, memory amount which the Napalm was designed for.

Quote:

RaptorZX3 wrote on Today at 9:03am:

so it's easier to mod a V4500 since they already have empty RAM sockets? so putting 8mb on those cards whould be good for 64mb.

Does that mean that if i get a V4500 someday, i could use those 8 x 8mb RAM from my V7100Pro to get a 64mb V4500 instead?

Yes, but I agree with Oscar when he says is better to use new RAMs solder-ready. When you desolder the ram from the donor you heat stress the chip and then one more time when you have to solder them on the target card. Moreover, since the RAM chip isn't "clean" there are chances that you get shorts when you solder the chip again.

Well, if I look at the post and see that the V4 4500 did a test run with 64MB @ 1600x1024 and 2xFSAA and scored 3xx and with 128MB it scored well over 800. Still a crappy score, but the increase due to ram increase is pretty damn good.
It is being hindered by the 33Mhz pci bus and his slow CPU (XP1900+), both of which I don't suffer from, seeing as I have a 66Mhz PCI slot waiting for it and an XP-M3000 clocked at 2.4Ghz, so if it would be possible....why not, maybe 4xFSAA will run decently then Cheesy

No i mean the AGP version, with the empty sockets, since the PCI version only have sockets for the RAM already there, so you would really need 16mb chips to make it 64mb, while on the AGP version, it seem you can still use 8mb chips, since it have 8 sockets in total (4 empty ones)

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goriath God Member Offline Ruggedized Retro Gamer Posts: 599 Italy/Slovenija Gender:	Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram Reply #28 - 04.12.13 at 23:14:45 Not to mention that Voodoo4 can do FSAA 2x only
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RaptorZX3

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Re: The cards that use TSOP86 ram
Reply #29 - 05.12.13 at 03:49:30

i don't care about anti-aliasing, i want to keep the best performance possible without adding to the useless "eye-candy". I had to switch from 32bit to 16bit color for Q3A to get better performances out of my Voodoo5, considering that 32bit was pretty much new at the time, so not that good for performances for new techs...

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