look the pictures..
it is strange that the V4 4500 PCI
why?
is that true?
1. http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/200742612281220521.jpg
=====================
2.http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/20074261722494867.jpg
=====================
3.http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/20074261723288259.jpg
=====================
4.http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/200742617231737074.jpg
======================
5.http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/200742617232983546.jpg
----------------
can you see the pictures

I can see the pictures.

Is this a card you own yourself, or images you got sent by someone else??

As far as I know there's only 1 4500 with 64MB and that was done by one of our members by soldering some extra ram onto the board.

I cannot see the photos... I waited for tens of minutes and there still was no connection established.
Can somebody please upload them to other server, like imageshack.us ?
Thanks

Nah, looks to be someone else. I kind of remember the screen shots from the 4500 upgrade here and if I remember right, had a different language pack installed other then these. I could be completely wrong on that, I'm getting old but...  :P

There you go :

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9171/voodoo464mb1zo7.jpg
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/6535/voodoo464mb2dl3.jpg
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/6788/voodoo464mb3ex6.jpg
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5790/voodoo464mb4uu4.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5707/voodoo464mb5qa7.jpg

Imageshack is very slow lately :P

Any pictures of the board? Frankly, any of these can be faked with ease.

maybe larger sized memory chips were installed on the board ?

the V4 4500 PCI 64M is mine!
and i was strange why it is 64M?
---------------------------------
everyone can give me a software that i can check
--------------------
and thank you FalconFly
--------------------------------
the memory chip is  HY57V653220B  TC-6
A:http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/200742716461369405.jpg
---------------------------
B:http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/200742716462851212.jpg
-----------------------------------

Is it possible to upload also pictures with the whole card, front and back, please?One picture with the entire Voodoo4 front plus one with the back-side would be of great help to solve the mistery with this indeed stange board.  Without pics with the board itself cannot tell if it is real or a BIOS hoax...
The HY57V653220B memory modules are of the type: 2Mx32bit, that is 8Mb so 8 of them are necesary to count for a total of 64Mb. I knew of only 4 spots for soldering RAM chips onto regular Voodoo PCI PCB. Does the card also have memory modules on the back-side?
How many RAM chips does it have in total and where are they located?

you are right !
it is the strange V4 4 500 PCI 64M
A:http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/20074271835995243.jpg
-----------------------------------------------
B:http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/20074271842324535.jpg
----------------------------------------------
C:http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/20074271843093826.jpg
=================

well, if I remember correctly, there is a Voodoo 4 4500 that has place 4 8 chips, wasn't TM30 the one that made it a 64MB part??

Could always be that he purchased the card from someone who had pulled off the same trick. :)

wrote on 27.04.07 at 12:08:13:

well, if I remember correctly, there is a Voodoo 4 4500 that has place 4 8 chips, wasn't TM30 the one that made it a 64MB part??

The AGP board has extra spots, the PCI board does not.

Dont get me wrong, but the card looks just like a regular V4-PCI.

@ Komponent
I uploaded the front and back pictures to imageshack, just in case you still have problems opening them :

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2033/20074271835995243dw1.jpg

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4894/20074271842324535rg8.jpg

seems to be a bios hack then. I only count 4 ram chips, they are 8MB a piece, nothing on the backside.....

or they are 16MB per piece maybe the wrong text was printed on those ram chips! :-X

in Dos

use the software------Hwinfo  ver:4.8.8

A:http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/2007428920288329.jpg
-----------------------------------------------
B:http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-4/20074289201562467.jpg
-----------------------------------------
it was still displayed 64M .

do you have the better software ..

i want to continue to test.......

thank you

For me looks also like a bios hack.
Can u try some benchmark that are using the additional 32 Mb ?
This should be the only way to find out.

Br.
Radu.

First, I want to thank FalconFly and Rolo01 for re-uploading the pics.
I guess that there is a way to investigate for a BIOS hack and it should be easy: if ssstjy would dump the bios from his Voodoo, save it and upload it to a hosting server for us, then his BIOS could be compared with the regular "factory default" one. Ssstjy, would you agree to that?
It is my oppinion and I do no try to impose it to others, that this card, ssstjy's Voodoo PCI, cannot be a real, true 64Mb board, because there are only 4 chips of 8Mb RAM each for a total of 32Mb. I cannot belive until I see hard evidence that a manufacturer so important as Hyunday would wrongfully label 16Mb memory modules as 8Mb chips, just by misstake. There is also a clue suggesting that what we see soldered onto the PCB are common genuine 8Mb RAM chips: in order for a 16Mb memory module to function at it's full size, it must use a supplementar adress line than a 8Mb module; yet, in none of those pics done with such great detail, we cannot see any PCB trace at all connecting pin 21 for A11, for any of the 4 chips.
Well, my oppinion and nothing more...

thank you for FalconFly and Rolo01 for re-uploading the pics!

thank you very much!

---------------------------
Komponent-----you are right ! i agree your idea ,and how to dump the bios from my V4 4500

PCI?

can you send me the software???? let me download the software ? thank you

--------------------

Use this tool:
http://3dfxbios.stantoworld.co.uk/files/utils/dumpbios64.zip
... to dump a image of the card's BIOS and save it. Boot into MS-DOS and run the program and the BIOS from your Voodoo4 should be saved as BIOS.BIN.

thank you for Komponent

i had get the BIOS.BIN

please give me your E-mail.

i will sent you the BIOS.BIN

and can you help me sent the BIOS to here

Well, ssstjy, I am not the expert on those forums, not  on BIOS'es, but I will do my best to look into this situation. I think that it would be better if you would upload the bios.bin file onto a public free hosting server, like www.rapidshare.de so anyone here interested could download it and study it, but if you want to send it to me, my e-mail adress is Komponent at gmail.com

OK, Komponent

i had sent to Komponent@gmail.com

Chosen One is our resident BIOS expert ;)

wrote on 30.04.07 at 15:03:11:

OK, Komponent i had sent to Komponent@gmail.com

... and you have an reply email from me. Please check your email box and let me know what you will do.

Hello Komponent
i had sent you the BIOS of V4 64Mpci
---------------------------------------------

after i flash the BIOS

it was still displayed 64M
-------------

wrote on 30.04.07 at 18:22:20:

Chosen One is our resident BIOS expert ;)

collector sounds better...i do not have any qualities to change fundamental things inside the bios...only small changes relating to names/clocks/latencies...
but if i can get the bios i'll take a look...sounds interesting...

wrote on 09.05.07 at 17:36:24:

Hello Komponent i had sent you the BIOS of V4 64Mpci --------------------------------------------- after i flash the BIOS it was still displayed 64M -------------

Dudes, to put it in short words, Ssstjy had asked here for assistance to confirm a possible Voodoo4 PCI with 64Mb and I offered to help him as and if I could. Knowing that I previously had some experience in modding a Voodoo4 AGP to 64Mb, he decided to accept my advices and council as they were and I will now take the liberty to present the results.
Because we suspected here the possible case of a BIOS hack -and let it be known that it is very easy to edit a BIOS to display any desired value of memory at the post-screen, a.k.a. bootscreen- I suggested a radical move to confirm or infirm the fact of a real 64M Voodoo4 PCI: to save the BIOS for further study and to flash the card with the orriginal 3DFX BIOS 1.15, downloaded from Stanto's website. The advantage was that if there would have been only a BIOS hack in place, then after flashing the Voodoo4 with the common BIOS, it would have had to show the true amount of installed RAM.
Here are some pics with the steps taken by the progress of the opperation:
After booting the PC with the "64Mb BIOS" working on the card, he goes to DOS enviroment to the folder where the flashing tool program and the ROM image resides:

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/3750/dscf0026of7.jpg

Ssstjy then launches the flasher with the orriginal 3DFX BIOS:

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/4840/dscf0028jw8.jpg

The new BIOS is transfered to the Voodoo4 PCI and the old one -the one reporting 64Mb- gets saved in the process:

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/9473/dscf0029dt9.jpg

The opperation is finished with no problems:

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/3244/dscf0031jn1.jpg

After rebooting the PC... surprise; at the post-screen there are still displayed 64Mb of video memory, like before:

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/2335/dscf0034ev3.jpg

OK, OK... the boot-screen still show 64Mb RAM, but how about some tests into Windows with the orriginal 3DFX BIOS 1.15 for Voodoo4 PCI, downloaded from a safe orrigin, Stanto's website:

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/600/after1ah2.jpg

The diagnose tool softwares all see a video card vith 64Mb memory...
How about the first BIOS, suspected of hacks to show an incorrect value for the installed RAM? Ssstjy was kind enough to send it to me for study. If you dudes want to check it yourself, below it is a link to download it:

http://rapidshare.com/files/30406272/SAVE.ROM.html

After the first look, it is clear that none of the registers are different than they should have been. In fact, after using a HEX-editor to compare the files it is obvious that  the non-matching portion is the lack of the "www.v3info.co.uk" advertisement added into the code of the BIOS downloaded from Stanto's archive.
Now... you might know that there are ways to override the BIOS registers by hardware strapping resistors placed onto the PCB, and I cannot exclude that option; I am just stating the facts as I received them from the owner; but from my oppinion, the BIOS appears free of hacks and clean.
So, is it a true 64Mb Voodoo4 PCI? Well, we have no reason not to trust the info's from Sssty argumented so far with screen-shots and pics, or that the BIOS is not genuine. But from the pictures we can clearely see on the RAM chips the markings for 8Mb, not 16Mb modules and they are 4 of them for a total count of 32Mb. There are no visible supplementar A11 memory adress traces visible onto the PCB too...
Is this 64Mb Voodoo4 PCI the real deal? Well... look at the available evidences and decide for yourself if you can...

@ ssstjy

Another way of finding out is test 4500 PCI 64MB in 3D Mark 20001 SE, after that run the same test run on a 4500 PCI 32MB, then compare the scores and if there is a nice difference between the scores ... heh there you are I'd say ;)

You are right again, master Obi. This was Ssstjy's ideea from the start; to get a second "regular" Voodoo4 PCI with 32Mb and to compare it with the one that reports 64Mb. Unfortunately, he was not able yet to find and to buy another Voodoo4 PCI...

Chosen_One, you are showing alot of modesty; we all know that you have searched for and found the rarest BIOSes from 3DFX and you have by now allmost all of the revissions. That leads me to a question for you... how should your BIOS collection be treated, as a private one or as a opened repository? I know that if someone wants a BIOS from you all that he has to do is ask for it by e-mail or by a private message and we all thank you for that; but would it also be possible to share the whole of them? That is, could you upload the entire collection of BIOSes to an internet server so anyone interested could download it, or will you keep it private? The reason behind me asking that is that you have a wonderfull collection with many very hard to find rom images and if -GOD prevent that- something happens to you or to your storage devices, they might get lost forever for the public... you know, it is about the story about not keeping all of your eggs into only one basket, he-he...

Ssstjy, great work; very well documented with the screenshots and pics.

hehe...exxe has the same bios-files....

i'll think about a place where they can be stored...maybe exxe and myself can talk again about the bios-topic (we had some ideas but we stopped talking about it...coz my time is limited and some other reasons)...

in the meantime you can contact me via PM...but i won't give you the whole collection in a zip-file...therefore i searched too long...someday it can be downloaded...piece by piece in a good database ;)

thank you very much for Komponent!!

thank you for your help!!!

I must buy another V4 4500 PCI , and compare with This!

After  i had compared 。i will send you the pictures ！

hello Komponent!

i had buy another V4 4500 PCI

i had test  and  run  3times  3Dmark

and i had already send you the pictures .

please check .

OK then. Sorry for the delay, Ssstjy.
I guess that I will do my best to try to help our friend from Asia, allthough I do not know if my English is any better than his...
Remember, dudes, a short time ago, Ssstjy managed to get a Voodoo4 PCI that reported 64Mb of video memory, both at boot-screen and in diagnose programs. In an effort to find if the card has 64Mb RAM for real, and not due to a BIOS hack, he saved it's BIOS for further study and then he even flashed the card with the orriginal 1.15PCI 3DFX BIOS. After the flash, the Voodoo4 continued to report the same amount of memory at post-screen and in diagnose softwares too. The study of the saved BIOS revealed no hack; in fact it was just the default that can be found on Voodoo4 PCI cards with 32Mb.
You should allready know by now that Ssstjy's 64Mb Voodoo4 PCI has serials on the memory modules that indicate 8Mb chips for a total of 32Mb RAM and it has no visible traces for the A11 line adress required for 16Mb memory modules to function at full capacity. Also, one very important fact is that there are no visible signs of any rework on the card, it looks genuine, factory default, but yet it reports 64Mb of video RAM.
Realy not your usual experience, right dudes? Well, there is more to it... And now I am even more puzzled.
But first, let me say that the obvious path to try to solve the mistery with this unusual Voodoo4 PCI was to compare it's performance to another regular 32Mb one. If benchmarked against each-other on the same test-system and conditions, the reported 64Mb card would have showed a boost in performance compared to a regular 32Mb Voodoo4 PCI, then this would be the proof that extra-memory realy is present on the card and plus it is working. And for what we knew about 3DFX'es products it would also be a great leap from faith to fact.
So, Ssstjy was lucky enough to be able to get a second Voodoo4 PCI, this time one that reported the usual 32Mb; and the testing could now begin.
Here is a picture with the two cards -they look identical to my eyes- :

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/3536/dscf0018pn5.jpg

And here we can see a very nice close-up in great detail showing the RAM chips soldered onto both PCB's:

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/6739/dscf0023zy8.jpg

Before we go into testing results, I ask you for a litle memory training, he-he...
If you dudes still remember it, it happened a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... I was able to mod a regular Voodoo4 AGP from 32Mb to 64Mb RAM by soldering 4 extra memory modules into the empty places on the PCB and after flashing the card with a modded BIOS. To confirm that the memory was fully used, at your request I benchmarked the Voodoo4 AGP with 64Mb against a Voodoo4 AGP with orriginal 32Mb and against a Voodoo5 5500 AGP and a Voodoo4 PCI too. Thanks for theyr help into this project are renewed to Mikulaish and HankSemenek and the old topic regarding my greatest success can be found here:

http://www.falconfly-central.de/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=general;action=display;num=1145604124

I only mentioned this sort of off-topic story for a reason: the results after testing the Voodoo4 AGP with 64Mb against the Voodoo4 AGP with 32Mb in 3DMark 2001 were:

Voodoo 4 AGP 64 Mb AGP4x : No FSAA : 1576 3D marks

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5339/v4agp64mbnoaa8cb.jpg

Voodoo 4 AGP 32 Mb AGP 4x : No FSAA : 1471 3D marks

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/19/v4agp32mbnoaa6lq.jpg

That stands for arround 100 3DMark points in performance boost for the extra memory on the 64Mb card.

Now, let us go back to Ssstjy's Voodoo4's PCI and the results after testing both cards with the same 3DMark2001:

Voodoo 4 PCI 64 Mb: 1294 3D marks

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1667/64mpci2of8.jpg

Voodoo 4 PCI 32 Mb: 1210 3D marks

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2227/32mpci2pi5.jpg

That stands for 84 3DMark points in performance boost for the reported 64Mb card against the regular 32Mb one; and this is very close to the results that I got with my modded 64Mb Voodoo4 AGP against the default 32Mb Voodoo4 AGP; allthough the difference is just a little smaller, it can be justified by the fact that Ssstjy's cards were runing at 33Mhz PCI bus that does not scale as well as the AGP 4X 266Mhz.

Now, can you understand why I feel puzzled? There were important clues indicating for a hoax, but all the datas provided by Ssstjy appear to be the confirmation for a real Voodoo4 PCI with 64Mb, fully working.
I know, there is a old say, "seeing is beliving" and I was not able to test the card myself to cast away any doubts, but we have no reason not to take for granted and true the info's received from Ssstjy; and the conclusion that I see after all the proofs has shifted to accepting his Voodoo4 PCI for a real 64Mb card.
It is only my oppinion based on the facts that I am aware of. Dudes, what do you think about the subject?

hmm Very interesting Komponent & ssstjy 8) As I read and look at the photo's a difference of 84 points ins't nothing and this might be the evidence that sstjy's 4500PCI is a real 64Meg card afterall.

Because a difference of 84 points would seem very common just because of the larger memory scale of that 64 meg V4 PCI.

So the way I see it, well that Voodoo 4 4500 PCI from sstjy is a real 64 MB card with wrong ram indcation prints attached to it, do remember that even when programming the memory printer machine a wrong code can by printed on those chips since the person that opperates that machine can make mistakes like everybody else ;)

Nice find sstjy and thanx for the hosting plus research Komponent.  8)

The Force Is Truely With You !!!

Were these benchmarks scores obtained from running 3DMark once? Or the average of several?

3DMark doesn't produce the same score everytime, which can explain the difference.

And what processor was used?

voodoo4 PCI 32MB
first time
http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-5/200751320182849985.jpg
second time
http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-5/200751320183657404.jpg
third time
http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-5/200751320184358110.jpg

first time score:1214
second time score:1210
third time score:1212
average score:1212


voodoo4 PCI 64MB
first time
http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-5/200751320202252862.jpg
second time
http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-5/200751320202939465.jpg
third time
http://bbs.yjfy.com/UploadFile/2007-5/200751320203654324.jpg

first time score:1290
second time score:1294
third time score:1293
average score:1293

wrote on 13.05.07 at 18:36:53:

[...] So the way I see it, well that Voodoo 4 4500 PCI from sstjy is a real 64 MB card with wrong ram indcation prints attached to it, do remember that even when programming the memory printer machine a wrong code can by printed on those chips since the person that opperates that machine can make mistakes like everybody else ;) [...]

No, no; normaly that option should not even be plausible for a fully working 64mb card out of chips of 16Mb RAM each of them; you know it as well as as know it too.
Even if the memory modules were of 16Mb but printed with the wrong serials, for the 8Mb variant, that does not change the fact that in order for the RAM chips to function at theyr full capacity it is necesary for the supplementar A11 line adress to be connected to the memory controller -and this one is a part of the GPU. If this is not accomplished, the memory modules would be seen at best as 8Mb chips or not at all.
BUT, on the standard Voodoo4 PCI, the A11 line adress is NOT wired; there is no trace from the M_A11 ball under the GPU to the coresponding pin solder pads. If one would want to use higher density memory modules onto the Voodoo4 PCI PCB, it would be necesary to wire the line with an external conductor.
I had done a study and research to find the connecting points for the missing traces onto a Voodoo4 PCI PCB, in the perspective of a future modding project and I found the following result - see the next picture:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2703/v4pcivsa100modgw6.jpg
God, I would love to put my hands on Ssstjy's Voodoo4 PCI with 64Mb to get to know for sure how was it realised...

heh yeah maybe you could ask him to send it to you for further testing ;D heh just a thoughtfull option there ::) hah I like the idea though ;D

There is something wrong with your V4 ipchipang!
I got this with V3 3000 AGP(P3 800MHz, 256Mb):
http://www.mansfield.thibros.com/images//3dmarkki.jpg

can you tell what CPU and how much memory you got in that system. CPU affects a lot in that test!

   Our picture was ssstjy's,voodoo3 can't not work in 32bit color and 24bit Z-buffer depth,it could only work in 16bit color and 16bit Z-buffer depth,so the voodoo3's score higher than voodoo4 in 3D MARK 2001 is usual.But if they work in the same setting that voodoo4's score must higher than voodoo3's.

it is the same with you
------------------------------

P3 800 SLOT 1
kingmax PC150 128M
kingmax pc133  128M
MSI BX master

-------------------------------
windows 98se chinese version

3Dmark 2001

I will take  a V3 3000 S AGP to the same PC  tonight!

Nothing is be changed  except the display card !


let you know how many  score the V3 3000S

Some more news: Our chinese buddy, Ssstjy sent me a couple of new screenshots of testing his 64Mb Voodoo4 PCI against the regular 32Mb Voodoo4.
OK, we allready know that the performance boost offered by the extra memory becomes important when the cars is pushed to it's hardware limits, for example when Anti-Aliasing is applied. The procedure practicaly doubles the amount of video memory used for rendering the scene, because each frame has to be super-sampled; so more RAM onto the video card gives more performance.
This point was confirmed when I tested my Voodoo4 AGP with 64 MB, modded by adding extra memory modules to a regular Voodoo4 32Mb AGP:

Voodoo 4 AGP 64 Mb AGP4x : 2x FSAA : 803 3D marks

http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/3887/v4agp64mb2xaa5uc.jpg

Voodoo 4 AGP 32 Mb AGP 4x : 2x FSAA : 661 3D marks

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8343/v4agp32mb2xaa2dv.jpg

That stands for arround 140 3DMark 2001 points in performance boost for Voodoo4 AGP 64Mb against 32Mb.
So, when Anti-Aliasing is applied, the difference becomes more important if the card has more memory installed.

Back to Ssstjy's cards. He tested both Voodoo4 PCI cards -with 64Mb and 32Mb- with 3DMark 2001 when FSAA was activated, so next are the results:

Voodoo 4 PCI 64 Mb : 2x FSAA : 765 3D marks

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5015/64mpciv4bpf4.jpg

Voodoo 4 PCI 32 Mb : 2x FSAA : 607 3D marks

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/263/32mpciv4bhn6.jpg

That stands for arround 160 3DMark 2001 points for the performance boost of the 64Mb Voodoo4 PCI against the regular 32Mb one. So the extra memory does make an important enough difference...
Am I wrong, or Ssstjy's card is the only confirmed 64Mb Voodoo4 PCI in the whole world?
Thanks for sharing the testing results, buddy.

Now if only would Ssstjy agree to follow my instructions, we could have a good chance to find how does the card works with 16Mb chips with a PCB that looks identical to the default design of the 32Mb Voodoo4 PCI, and with no visible reworks... you know, the A11 adress line's trace problem...

Well, this situation looks very interessting for me.
And the ram chips are 8 Mb...hmmm...this is very very stange.

Br.
Radu.

Well what we do have is the eveidence that this card has 64MB of ram no doubts about that as far as I can tell :)

because a 3D mark difference of 160 Points should be a descent difference to see the odds right 8)

And yeah so far it is the only 64MB PCI 4500 in the world since we have never seen such a thing with a standard single GPU PCI 3dfx card to be honest there!

what about games like Unreal with as without FSAA what differences do you get from that game or Quake3 and so on, it might be interesting to test on how it would perform in Glide apps as OpenGL apps since it was designed to do Glide in the first place :)

wrote on 17.05.07 at 01:45:51:

Well what we do have is the eveidence that this card has 64MB of ram no doubts about that as far as I can tell :)

Err. I have plenty just based on technical aspects.

1) The markings on the ram
2) missing ram address line to vsa-100

Hmm but would that explain the performance difference in 3D Mark 2001SE B330 ?

Since the difference between the 4500 AGP with 32 as 64MB show the same type of difference with the 32MB as 64MB PCI and that the markings on the Ram seem to have the worng discriptions ;)

The 3D Mark tests give enough proof for that even with FSAA x2,the test results show a 160 point difference, which imho alot compared to the 32MB model, a difference too big for the same amount of ram @ default speeds.

wrote on 17.05.07 at 11:17:23:

Hmm but would that explain the performance difference in 3D Mark 2001SE B330 ?

I hate to be a spoil-sport and a sceptic, but what can I do - I don't belive in aliens but I certanly do belive in power of photoshop (or GIMP) and in some jokers all over the net  ;)

Listen to this scenario:
He might have altered the LOD quality before testing the card to get difference in 3Dmark results. Or he could have "downclocked" the CPU to get the lower score. He also might have altered the BIOS file AFTER he dumped it, and then sent it to Komponent.

I am not claiming anything, but I doubt this is a genuine V4 64MB. No offence meant :)

Well I Don't think that ssstjy would cheat us on the results, I think you are being a little bit sceptical there ::)

wrote on 17.05.07 at 19:11:31:

Well I Don't think that ssstjy would cheat us on the results, I think you are being a little bit sceptical there ::)

No- I'm hard nosed about facts.

The fact is the correct address line isn't there... as someone else explained in detail.

There could be 128 megs of ram attached to the board and it still is only going to access 32 mb.

Occam's razor points to the simplest explanation.

it still remains an unclear situation because 160 points difference with the same card @ the same speeds doesn't sound normal, that one has 32MB is allready known and that the other may have 64 would make sence for such a difference look what happens with the AGP 32MB as 64MB boards the difference between them is also about the same a bit more because they run @ true AGP x4 speeds instead of PCI heh.

If it is 32MB like you believe it is, how can we be so sure of that, then not by going to the decails on the ram chips ;)

wrote on 17.05.07 at 20:41:06:

If it is 32MB like you believe it is, how can we be so sure of that, then not by going to the decails on the ram chips ;)

Address line for the VSA-100 controller.

Have you not understood anything I posted?

Well, now... hold your horses, dudes... There is no point to argue; there still are hard facts to be adressed.
First, there is no question about it: no matter of the default size of the RAM chip, if it is larger than 8Mb, may it be 16Mb, 32Mb or any higher per module, if there is no connection made from the memory controller of the GPU to the A11 line adress of the chip, the card will only see up to 8Mb present or it will not identify the memory at all. The presence of a dedicated A11 adress line trace onto the PCB or of a rework is REQUIRED for 16Mb RAM chips opperation; it is not phisicaly possible without it to function at full size. But the trace does not have to be visible at a "eyes only" inspection. It can run through an inner layer of the PCB and rise under the chip to be hooked up.
Second, if we accept that there is a chance that the memory modules soldered onto Ssstjy's Voodoo4 PCI were printed with the wrong code, but are in fact 16Mb memory modules each, then there is an easy way to test if the A11 adresses are connected to theyr designated signals at the VSA100. So easy that in fact there should be no reason for Ssstjy not to do the test by himself if his card is a real 64Mb one and he wants to confirm that fact without doubts.
If you remember, years ago, Hank Semenek had removed the GPU's out of a Voodoo5 AGP to search for the A11 connection points required for a future rework and he posted the results over the internet.
But because I was interested into modding a Voodoo4 PCI to 64Mb and nobody else researched that PCB for the A11 connection points, I decided to do it myself and I found them after un-soldering the VSA100. A self-explaining picture was posted by me on this forum. Here it is again:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2703/v4pcivsa100modgw6.jpg

For Ssstjy to find if he has onto the PCB a connection to the A11 adresses of the chips will be just to use a multimeter. The A11 line is pin 21 on TSOP2-86 memory modules, like the ones soldered on the Voodoo4's. He has to set the multimeter to measure electrical resistance -ohms- or to beeper if it has such function. Then he has to place first one cable of the multimeter to the MA_A11 point on the PCB of the card in the position marked in the picture. Next, he has to place the other cable on the pin 21 of the two chips located on the top side of the Voodoo4, relative to the PCI connector; of course not for the two chips at once, but one by one. If the multimeter beeps or displays 0 resistance then there is a trace going from the memory controller to the A11 adress. If it does not... well, then the claim for a fully working 64Mb Voodoo4 PCI cannot be valid. Here is a picture showing where the A11 pin is on the chip. For the two "top" modules it should be tested for the MA_A11 point on the PCB.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7224/maa11ot3.jpg

Next, he has to move one conductor of the multimeter to the MA_B11 point on the PCB and to check for connection to the A11 at the pin 21 of the two RAM chips located on the lateral side of the Voodoo4. The same consideration apply as before. Here is a picture with the two modules soldered on the lateral side of the PCB and the location of the pin 21 that should be tested for connection to the MA_B11 point that is marked on the first pic.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3459/mab11zz3.jpg

I hope that Ssstjy will agree to do this test to remove the justified doubts regarding his claimed 64Mb Voodoo4 PCI. I do not know what you dudes think, but I say that it cannot be more easy than so.
Good luck, Ssstjy, and get back soon with news...

wrote on 17.05.07 at 21:47:57:

Address line for the VSA-100 controller. Have you not understood anything I posted?

Save it man, I don't read Borg.

Just be more specific,then I might be able te read as understand what you are saying.

and uhm who in the world is the following ???


wrote on 17.05.07 at 20:33:12:

Occam's razor points to the simplest explanation.

I was like mkaay who is that ?

Quote:

and uhm who in the world is the following?

I'm not even reading this thread regularly - and in the last five minutes I followed it perfectly! ;)

Resistance is futile! ;D

As for the other question...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

wrote on 17.05.07 at 23:44:19:

I'm not even reading this thread regularly - and in the last five minutes I followed it perfectly! ;) Resistance is futile! ;D As for the other question... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

heh me2 man, but anyways still odd that the card get's like 160 points more in 3D Mark 2001SE with FSAA x2, THAT hasn't been explained propperly so far as I have been following and yes reading this thread.

@ gdonovan

your words for yourself may seem easy as clear but for others as myself they do not, sorry mate but I felt a little offended back there.

wrote on 17.05.07 at 23:50:37:

your words for yourself may seem easy as clear but for others as myself they do not, sorry mate but I felt a little offended back there.

If you don't understand how electronics work, you should not give forth opinions on them.

The sun rises in the East- Debating it *could* rise in the West is pointless when in fact it can only rise in the East.

I have already pointed out TWICE that if the address line isn't there, then in fact the VSA-100 WILL NOT access 64 mb of ram. I'm offended I have to point this out, again to you. You seem to disregard facts when they don't fit what you wish to be true.

The PCB looks unmodifed, has a production PCB date and number and has no external line added, not to mention that the ram chips carry production markings and sizes.

Well guys, I'm off to another 24h shift of work, so I'll keep it short :

This is the Internet, so take everything you read from private entities with a grain of salt and take it for what it's worth.

I wouldn't tear one's eye out over a discussion related to any of that.

wrote on 18.05.07 at 02:50:10:

If you don't understand how electronics work, you should not give forth opinions on them. The sun rises in the East- Debating it *could* rise in the West is pointless when in fact it can only rise in the East. I have already pointed out TWICE that if the address line isn't there, then in fact the VSA-100 WILL NOT access 64 mb of ram. I'm offended I have to point this out, again to you. You seem to disregard facts when they don't fit what you wish to be true. The PCB looks unmodifed, has a production PCB date and number and has no external line added, not to mention that the ram chips carry production markings and sizes.

No bud, it's that I do read your posts for more than like 7 times it's that they just don't explain why the card get's more points in 3D Mark, that's all I was asking maybe you didn't understand mine properly?

So it's still odd why there is a difference in 3D Mark that part especially with FSAA x2 enabled That still hasn't been explained yet, a shame though.

Maybe the wrong size ramchips were placed during production with the wrong ram printings who knows but that might be possible that the wrong text was printed on the card's memory chips, it still remains unclear. ;D

wrote on 18.05.07 at 11:54:55:

No bud, it's that I do read your posts for more than like 7 times it's that they just don't explain why the card get's more points in 3D Mark, that's all I was asking maybe you didn't understand mine properly?

You just proved what I pointed out- facts mean nothing to you.

1) We have the picture of the board, with no mods and stock ram.

2) 3D Mark results are easy to skew or simply photoshop.

Which direction does the razor point?


Quote:

Maybe the wrong size ramchips were placed during production with the wrong ram printings who knows but that might be possible that the wrong text was printed on the card's memory chips, it still remains unclear. ;D

So let us understand this theory- Of the millions of 8 mb ram chips 3dfx purchased for VSA-100 boards, 4 of them magically are 16mb, by magic have 8mb markings and by magic find this one board which by magic uses the full ram amount even though there is no address line?

Sounds pretty rediculous doesn't it?

yeah probably but I dunno if ssstjy would use photoshop to fool us, that would be a bit to sceptical on teh lad hay but yeah that is easilly possible with Photoshop, true there :)

But yeah you have a point thanx for the clearness and yeah it does sound rediculous about the ram chips :)

hello everyone

My english is poor

so  i hope you can understand what i said !

I only know 60% what you were talking about...

I find somebody doubt me use THE PhotoSHop to modify the pictures what i had sent !

but i had not use the photoshop software to do that

I do not modify the pictures to cheat  you

but i dont know how to express my feeling

tomorrow i will take some pictures to here

and i wil use the DC to take Video to here....to prove i do not cheat you!

@sstjy - don't worry man! I'm on your side (as most of us are!) ;)

@Obi_wan - please refrain from accusing other board members from cheating! ::)

Listen sssty, nobody claims that you cheat - it could be a nice joke with us all here  ;) No problems there dude, just admit it and we'll all LOL'n'ROFL ourselfs off  ;D U're OK man 8)

Komponent: Don't bother - nobody but him can verify that and that's thin.

Well it certainly has been entertaining but I don't want to see anyone get their feeling hurt. As my daughter would say, "It's all Good"

wrote on 18.05.07 at 20:47:15:

@sstjy - don't worry man! I'm on your side (as most of us are!) ;) @Obi_wan - please refrain from accusing other board members from cheating! ::)

Uhm sorry ??? I replied to gdonovan by agreeing to his statement


wrote on 18.05.07 at 12:43:33:

2) 3D Mark results are easy to skew or simply photoshop. ......

since he is right 3D Mark scores are very easy to mess with as to change with via photoshop ;)

hah ;D
Language is a funny questions

thank you very one

you are caring the card .

Tonight I will sent some video and pictures  to Komponent 's E-mail

I hope  Komponentc to help me to sent the video and pictures   to here to let you download  to see

And OPen you eyes to see whether I  used THE PHOTOSHOP to modify the pictures.....

seeing is believeing

==========================

hah   :D

NO for resale       or       NOT  for resale

somebody can say that I  Del the T

hah  

Quote:

"NO for resale" or "NOT  for resale" somebody can say that I Del the T

OMG LOL! ;D

Nice one @ssstjy! 8)


Quote:

Uhm sorry  I replied to gdonovan by agreeing to his statement

Ah, yep! My bad - looked at your post again... ::)

;Dhah
yesterday i had sent the VIdeos and Pictures to Komponent

about 100M

Sorry for the delay, dudes; I was not able to post the news sooner and I will not be able to compile all the data's and to select the best files sent by Ssstjy to show them; nor will I comment on the results this time, because I am currently ill. I got seak because I had to walk for a long time through the rain... so to be of any help I will post the links from where you could download the video files and the pics. Please get them, watch them and share your oppinins upon the subject.

Here you have the video files with Ssstjy's Voodoo4 PCI with 64Mb in action:

http://rapidshare.com/files/32310674/Video_V4_64Mb.rar.html

Here you also have video files, but with his regular 32Mb Voodoo4 PCI being tested:

http://rapidshare.com/files/32312896/Video_V4_32Mb.rar.html

... and here are alot of new pics and screenshots and also some older ones:

http://rapidshare.com/files/32314357/PicsV4PCI.rar.html

Have fun and please do comment what do you think.
Quick note: still wait for the "multimeter test"; a video with a positive result of the A11 line adress confirmed to be connected would be the best proof. I hope that Ssstjy will provide one soon.

I am sorry to hear that you are ill

you must go to see the doctor and have a medicine!


Take care !

@Komponent - get well soon mate! ;)

@ Komponent

May The Force heal your illness mate ;) thanx for the links man, great Co-Op 8)

Co-op ???

Did someone say Co-op? :o


I hope your feeling better Komponent ;)

wrote on 21.05.07 at 04:12:00:

Co-op ??? Did someone say Co-op? :o I hope your feeling better Komponent ;)

well I meant a good Co=operation between ssstjy & Komponent for show'n us the evidence hehe, nice to see this 64MB 4500 PCI in action, looks like no phooshp , like  thought lol ::)

wrote on 21.05.07 at 11:42:00:

well I meant a good Co=operation between ssstjy & Komponent for show'n us the evidence hehe, nice to see this 64MB 4500 PCI in action, looks like no phooshp , like  thought lol ::)

What evidence? That photoshop was not @ work here? Fine. Now to the other (much more important) things that can alter the results:

A video showing these few thingies:

1. a program showing the real-time core clock of the CPU, as well as FSB&SDRAM clocks (let's say CPU-Z)
2. 3dfx properties window showing the LOD quality setting, as well as other picture quality settings
3. 3dfx properties windows showing the clock of the GPU/RAM
4. the most important thing: this must be a large video, uncut, one file (not A, B, C, D... ), from the boot, till the end of 3dmark test.

(5). Second video showing the dumping of the BIOS file and then editing and showing it in an external editor.

Now, if it passes that test - I might think about believing in this phenomena, because I don't think that any joker on the net would go through *that* much trouble as to modify the video and/or all of the required components (not that that's that much trouble, but still there are better things to do in the world)... I know I wouldn't  ;D

Thanks alot, dudes for your wishes for my health; it was nothing serious, just painfull headaches, but my wife took good care of me, he-he... so I am very much better now.
The thing about the new video files and pics with Ssstjy's Voodoo4 PCI in action reporting 64Mb is that they do show that is works... but there is still no evidence about... well... how it works? The thing about RAM sizes is that it opperates like a matrix: you want a bigger capacity? -Add more rows/columns. And because every row and column has to be accesible to be used, the PCB has to have dedicated traces for every adress lines. A video with 3DFX Tools and DxDiag reporting 64Mb is nice, but I want to know HOW is it technicaly possible in the first place. That is why, again, I push for the "multimeter test". I thought that I presented simple instructions, very easy to follow, so there should be no problem for Ssstjy to check by himself for the A11 line adress questionable connection to the GPU's memory controller. But if he needs more guidance, then I will be happy to help him step by step, just to get to a conclusion... My oppinion is that a video with the "multimeter test" would be the best proof presented so far. Correct me if I am wrong.

So... OK, it looks more and more like just an elaborate hoax, but I am currious how was it done? It could be cool to replicate it just for fun. By the way, SSSTJY, nice try; I almost trusted it to be true, *cough* huh

wrote on 03.06.07 at 09:26:54:

So... OK, it looks more and more like just an elaborate hoax, but I am currious how was it done? It could be cool to replicate it just for fun. By the way, SSSTJY, nice try; I almost trusted it to be true, *cough* huh

Like How gdonovan explained ;)

wrote on 17.05.07 at 03:18:30:

1) The markings on the ram 2) missing ram address line to vsa-100