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Who do we look up to now? (Read 1855 times)
nudgegoonies
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #45 - 29.02.04 at 23:24:18
 
N U D G E :
That guy from the late 80's aussie sitcom called 'Hey Dad'. Now i know why they renamed 'Puckman' to 'Pacman' in the US:
http://www.arcade-history.com/detail.php?id=1901 Wink

By the way, we had so many subject changes in this thread: From ATI vs NVIDIA to 3DFX engineers to Rampage to Linux to Beyonddreams to Consoles to Computerhistory to Gamehistory to Boardrules. Thats life ämp_man  Wink

@micha
Nice to see another 'Brotkasten' fan here! I always say everything that makes fun 'rocks'. There are so many people out there who always buy the latest hard'n'soft and say that everything that is more than two years old (c64's and voodoo's for example) sux. The really don't know what they miss...

Regards,
Andreas
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amp_man
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #46 - 01.03.04 at 02:29:45
 
Quote:
N U D G E :
That guy from the late 80's aussie sitcom called 'Hey Dad'. Now i know why they renamed 'Puckman' to 'Pacman' in the US:
http://www.arcade-history.com/detail.php?id=1901 Wink


sorry m8, my bad. I still don't like the whole idea of using "fukker" for a username though.

Quote:
By the way, we had so many subject changes in this thread: From ATI vs NVIDIA to 3DFX engineers to Rampage to Linux to Beyonddreams to Consoles to Computerhistory to Gamehistory to Boardrules. Thats life ämp_man  Wink


Now, just how exactly did it get from, say, Beyonddreams to consoles...
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janskjaer
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #47 - 01.03.04 at 12:30:03
 
Quote:
To counter-point this: consoles are offering acceptable results for their price, want more, state of the art, you pay a hefty price for it. If you have the money, you could receive something that is 10 times better, more reliable than any PC, and offers the greatest quality, but the price is 100 times bigger, and the programes designed for it are 100.000 times more rare, at least.


Yes, but as FalconFly & Micha said, it proves to be more expensive.  You said it yourself: "If you have the money"  Wink
The PC provides a much smoother transition with upgrading to today's modern technology.
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janskjaer
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #48 - 01.03.04 at 12:45:40
 
Quote:
different times, man..reflect about this simple point:
there were just a few games in the 80's compared to nowadays. just every day we got more of them! do you think you can deliver a driver which can fully support all games without getting any problems? see, that's not possible nowadays. you would need 100 people working around the clock or something like that..


I totally agree with this fact. That idea of having drivers that support every graphical functionality incorporated into today's games is impossible.
Different graphics engines, newer 3D technologies, it is very difficult for a manufacturer to anticipate what will need to be covered by the drivers. Have you ever wondered why drivers for graphics cards have got so large in file size over the years? The scale of compatibility they try to cater for is immense.

Quote:
concerning game consoles:
dude, do you know why nearly everbody who wants to play games owns a M$ PC system?? because it's (despite to consoles) a scalable system! since 3dfx introduced the voodoo1 the pc raised to become the gaming console..


The Voodoo1 did change the way we look at computers for games today! This is correct! Trying to fuse an arcade feel to the PC system was a success made by 3dfx. You can argue this point quite openly, but my opinion is that ATI and nVidia would not have been in the same frame of mind today if it wasn't for 3dfx! The only vendor that may have been still thinking this way today without the existence of 3dfx, would have been Matrox!



Quote:
and that's the fact why I'm still posting here! we've now even more quality w/ faster performance on pc games compared the a crappity smackin' gaystation. that's why we buy computers, isn't it?
the only console really useful is - in my opinion - the nintendo gamecube which can deliver full tv resolution unlike most other consoles.


GayStation!  Cheesy I like that one!  Classic  Grin Never liked the b*st**d playstation series! Just never caught on with me!

Now the GameCube, I definetely agree with, as it produces such a brilliant quality of images on the big screen! More so than the PS1/PS2. What's more, all that power from such a little box! It's a great console to have for taking on your holidays or when moving around! Smiley  If we could just get hold of some of the Mini-DVDR's! I feel a Piracy spree in the air!  Grin  Only for backing up your original games in case they get damaged, of course.  Wink
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janskjaer
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #49 - 01.03.04 at 13:11:30
 
Quote:
Ok. You buy a 3 Ghz CPU today. Soon you discover that you need 1 Ghz of Ram because games are demanding. You buy a newer soundcard because the on-board one fails to sound correctly and stutters in some games. You then install Directx, tons of pathces, to find out that the game still don't runs. Then you have a feeling, and you try each and every setting on D3d. Yes, you make the game to start.


Ahhh, the joys of PC's.  Smiley However, I have never come across situations as bad as this all at once, and as FalconFly most famously said, it's mostly the user sat in front of the monitor!
Also, do you think this really bothers anyone who owns a PC? as I don't see PC users on the decrease, more like on the increase! Roll Eyes

Micha is also right! A computer is the most un-intelligent thing in the world......without man (or woman, in the presence of our Lady, Patience), without a user!

Quote:
You play the game, but you are going from 100fps downto 30 when lots and lots of things appear. You see the sky but it has some strange "dithering" effect even when you can only run in 32 bit color. Frustration all over the place, as the photos from the game looked way different in that game magazine, and on TV.

You show me any game that runs @ or anywhere close to 100fps on a PS1 or PS2, and I will eat all my collection of hats and burn my house down in recognition of my ignorance! Trust me, it won't come to that though! Wink

And just for my own personal rant, no offence to anyone intended but I would rather stick with the PC's than buy a console only for it to be out of date a year down the line and have to spend another £350 every year for the latest brand new model!
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Micha
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #50 - 01.03.04 at 18:01:28
 
in fact, most game consoles are designed for average 30fps, not more. anyway, thanks for "agreeing" so much, james!

@ nudgegoonies: hehe, they just don't know what's good  Grin

>>adding<<
this here becomes my favourite thread so far  Grin Grin
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« Last Edit: 01.03.04 at 18:03:42 by Micha »  

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Andrew Boiu
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #51 - 02.03.04 at 09:58:48
 
Quote:
Ahhh, the joys of PC's.  Smiley However, I have never come across situations as bad as this all at once, and as FalconFly most famously said, it's mostly the user sat in front of the monitor!
Also, do you think this really bothers anyone who owns a PC? as I don't see PC users on the decrease, more like on the increase! Roll Eyes

Micha is also right! A computer is the most un-intelligent thing in the world......without man (or woman, in the presence of our Lady, Patience), without a user!

You show me any game that runs @ or anywhere close to 100fps on a PS1 or PS2, and I will eat all my collection of hats and burn my house down in recognition of my ignorance! Trust me, it won't come to that though! Wink

And just for my own personal rant, no offence to anyone intended but I would rather stick with the PC's than buy a console only for it to be out of date a year down the line and have to spend another £350 every year for the latest brand new model!


You still don't come to agree with the fact that you link things made in China with things made in Europe, with very different standards, and you expect to kick the bucket? Any of these works even a tiny different, and you can't expect paper-to-reality performance values. As things become more complex, greater the chances of a thing going "out of sync". Even 1 Celsius degree increase in heat can create a 2% non-linear response in electronic circuitry, not including the inherent problems of the actual chip and board design, flaws in components, tensions that vary even at 0,01 volts. Tons of situations to help a thing go wrong...

To your surprise, games can get as high as 100fps. They usually don't. In fact most of the time they don't get past 30fps in high res/tex/geom values. But, there is a but, you get to 100fps in an instant when you reach a low complexity area, this is very exhausting for the eye, and this happens in fact more than you think, not at 100fps, but at 60fps and it still matters. What I always say is that it is useless to make a game to run at 100fps or 60fps on a platform, when you don't make the fps performance more constant. Even when going slightly constant, sometimes you are still uncomfortable while playing a game. Vsync and Frame rate limiters can help, but the downside is that still you can go from 15 to 30 or 60fps in an instant.

I wonder if going deeper into tech stuff and electronics would help someone understand more what are the inherent problems of the PC's and how the old problems can't be solved so easily. And still some people even on calculations and on paper, would not recognise the true facts and figures that define that situation. As I doubt that, I will not go further in complexity.
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Micha
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #52 - 02.03.04 at 11:40:29
 
oh, please, have a try! i don't understand you, make it clear to me! i want to know something about pc complexity for real!  Cheesy
i suppose you don't do so as you don't know most facts. anyway, read again and try to figure out what james was speaking about!
e.g. to the fps: we were only refering to consoles here, no pc crap!
etc...
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Andrew Boiu
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #53 - 02.03.04 at 11:49:05
 
I know very well what I am talking about, Micha, I was reffering to fps on PC's, and more than that, definitevly has no sense getting into tech stuff. It would have one if you've commented elseway the last post, reffering to specific items, when you say you disagree. Doing in the manner you did, gets a clear answer to whom lacks the knowledge of some deep tech problems (avoiding to clearly proving with numbers, on what you don't know clearly) ...
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« Last Edit: 02.03.04 at 11:52:01 by Andrew Boiu »  
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dborca
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #54 - 02.03.04 at 15:02:39
 
Quote:
I know very well what I am talking about, Micha, I was reffering to fps on PC's, and more than that, definitevly has no sense getting into tech stuff. It would have one if you've commented elseway the last post, reffering to specific items, when you say you disagree. Doing in the manner you did, gets a clear answer to whom lacks the knowledge of some deep tech problems (avoiding to clearly proving with numbers, on what you don't know clearly) ...

Well, I guess you're very accustomed with this type of posting, anyway!  Tongue
And, btw, it's voltages, not tensions. Please avoid translating Politechnic Institute's papers "mot a mot".

Now we're on topic, awwright! Grin
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Lecram25
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #55 - 02.03.04 at 16:37:14
 
...
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amp_man
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #56 - 02.03.04 at 21:33:04
 
Quote:
You still don't come to agree with the fact that you link things made in China with things made in Europe, with very different standards, and you expect to kick the bucket? Any of these works even a tiny different, and you can't expect paper-to-reality performance values. As things become more complex, greater the chances of a thing going "out of sync". Even 1 Celsius degree increase in heat can create a 2% non-linear response in electronic circuitry, not including the inherent problems of the actual chip and board design, flaws in components, tensions that vary even at 0,01 volts. Tons of situations to help a thing go wrong...

To your surprise, games can get as high as 100fps. They usually don't. In fact most of the time they don't get past 30fps in high res/tex/geom values. But, there is a but, you get to 100fps in an instant when you reach a low complexity area, this is very exhausting for the eye, and this happens in fact more than you think, not at 100fps, but at 60fps and it still matters. What I always say is that it is useless to make a game to run at 100fps or 60fps on a platform, when you don't make the fps performance more constant. Even when going slightly constant, sometimes you are still uncomfortable while playing a game. Vsync and Frame rate limiters can help, but the downside is that still you can go from 15 to 30 or 60fps in an instant.


I'm sorry, what on earth are you tring to say? Man Andei, your posts get more and more fun to respond to! WTF is this crap about stuff made in chine versus europe? Everything is made in china/taiwan/japan these days! Jesus, I'll bet if you opened up that PS2 or XBOX, it would have 1/2 the same stuff as computers get! That's because they are little computers, and use a lot of the same or very similar equipment. And when you really think about that, doesn't it make sense that you would have the same variations in FPS that you do on an x86 PC? But with a console, you can't do anything about it! As for you're stuff about heat and overclocking, duh, when stuff runs hotter, it becomes somewhat less efficient. That's why serious overclockers spend big bucks on water cooling, CO2 cooling, and even liquid nitrogen cooling to keep their equipment running at those speeds. By the way, anyone seen those PCs with the refridgeration unit built into the bottom? Or perhaps it was here that I saw it, can't remember.

Quote:
I wonder if going deeper into tech stuff and electronics would help someone understand more what are the inherent problems of the PC's and how the old problems can't be solved so easily. And still some people even on calculations and on paper, would not recognise the true facts and figures that define that situation. As I doubt that, I will not go further in complexity.


Yes andrei, don't bother going into any further details. As one of america's greatest leader's once said:
"It's better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and resolve all doubt."
-Abraham Lincoln
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janskjaer
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #57 - 03.03.04 at 10:17:20
 
That is a very good motto by Abraham Lincoln.

I do apologise Andre if this causes any offence, but your English does leave something to be desired and I struggled to see the point you were making.

About the framerate debate, Scientifically, the human eye only sees a limit of 24 fps (this can be made debatable give or take a frame depending on the refresh rate in 'Hz'.  This would have to be a drastic difference e.g. 60Hz compared to 120Hz). Anything above 30fps, the eye fails to keep up and notice the difference in the change of the frame.  The game may seem faster at 100fps than 30fps, although the eye does not seem the frame change, it just sees an increase in speed of the game (the game moves faster).

My opinion is, is that PC's will ALWAYS be ahead of consoles, performance and quality wise, due to the high demand in newer technology and the frequent ever-changing architecture of modern systems.
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dborca
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #58 - 03.03.04 at 13:49:29
 
Ahhhh... those demons... won't let me alone... There is a question that haunts me continuously... Well, sorry, I can't help myself, so I have to ask: this subforum has "off-topic" description. Does this mean _ALL_ threads must be off-topic? ...
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« Last Edit: 03.03.04 at 13:50:09 by N/A »  
 
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Micha
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Re: Who do we look up to now?
Reply #59 - 03.03.04 at 16:39:02
 
look andrei, as most people here, i'm just too tired refering your posts. it's amazing how pigheaded and conceited one can be. sorry for that. but how come you promote game consoles in a 3dfx forum (as you should know, 3dfx made game consoles unnecessary for most of us)??
i recommend you reading some books and come back later.
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