3dfx Archive - Think Tank

Micha Senior Member Offline Got milk? Posts: 317 Gender:	Re: Think Tank Reply #30 - 30.03.04 at 12:08:32 yeah.. & what about the environment's temperature? i suppose it being @ normal room temps, i.e. 19-21°C. daniel, i think we can set water=H₂O in this case, as i don't think it has anything to do w/ the water consistence..
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amp_man Ex Member	Re: Think Tank Reply #31 - 30.03.04 at 22:43:52 Alright, this is my last shot at this one: Electrolyze it? If you pass an electrical current through water, it will break down into H₂ and O₂, which would effectively reduce the H₂O level. I don't know about the other part, though.
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Micha Senior Member Offline Got milk? Posts: 317 Gender:	Re: Think Tank Reply #32 - 01.04.04 at 15:22:04 amp_man, that would mean to change the amount of water in the bottle & that's not allowed..well, if it was, this would be the answer --> i can remember some experiment we made back in school/chemistry to undo the electrolyzation..but don't ask me how to.
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amp_man

Ex Member

Re: Think Tank
Reply #33 - 02.04.04 at 23:18:06

Quote:

amp_man, that would mean to change the amount of water in the bottle & that's not allowed..well, if it was, this would be the answer --> i can remember some experiment we made back in school/chemistry to undo the electrolyzation..but don't ask me how to. Undecided

Well, to undo electrolyzation, you burn hydrogen in the presence of oxygen, the byproduct is H₂O. And since the hydrogen and oxygen would most likely be in with the remaining H₂O, I think that technically qualifies as water. We'll see!

Quote:

(a) How could you make the H2O level fall without heating, moving the bottle or changing the amount of water inside?

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Micha

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Re: Think Tank
Reply #34 - 03.04.04 at 16:04:31

Quote:

Well, to undo electrolyzation, you burn hydrogen in the presence of oxygen, the byproduct is H₂O. And since the hydrogen and oxygen would most likely be in with the remaining H₂O, I think that technically qualifies as water. We'll see!

sure, but i thought this way shares some loss of water, anyway. i was thinking of some device to do it..damn, i just can't remember! ???

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amp_man Ex Member	Re: Think Tank Reply #35 - 03.04.04 at 21:04:00 Hmm, it only makes sense that if you break it down into its parts, it should combine into the same amount (think of the law of conservation of matter). This is turning into a very puzzling riddle. I know that batracio's way would work, I'm just trying to think how else you could do it...
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Micha Senior Member Offline Got milk? Posts: 317 Gender:	Re: Think Tank Reply #36 - 03.04.04 at 21:17:34 james said batracio was close, so i'll stay on it...is there another physical or chemical peculiarity for H₂O?
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amp_man

Ex Member

Re: Think Tank
Reply #37 - 04.04.04 at 00:54:03

Quote:

james said batracio was close, so i'll stay on it...is there another physical or chemical peculiarity for H₂O?

well...

H2O when changed from the liquid to the solid form is unique. It forms 5-sided crystals, which are larger than 5 molecules of H2O just floating. This makes ice actually less dense than water, which is why it floats in a cup. 4^o is where H2O is the densest out of all of it's possible states, unlike most compunds, which are most dense in the solid state. In addition, water is not pure H2O, it also includes some other minerals and about 0.01% ions, I think (I slept a lot during this unit in chemistry). These ions are H⁺ and OH^-, which as you might recognize, are what distinguises a base and an acid (an acid has an extra H⁺ ion, such as HCl, Hydrochloric Acid, which can combine with an OH^- ion to form water and chlorine gas, Cl₂, and similarly for a base). Hmm, that might give you a couple ideas, but I'd need to think more about it, and I really need to go right now! Hope this helps some (and that I'm not completely wrong).

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Micha

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Re: Think Tank
Reply #38 - 05.04.04 at 10:05:37

oh well...i stated it mustn't have to do something with H₂O is not = water, maybe i have to correct myself, as it seems the only way to solve the damn riddle..
but as you cannot change the amount inside, this would also mean - no matter if pure H₂O or natural water is inside the bottle - you needn't to take it out on a molecule-level..but let's see: maybe there's any experiment doing something with the minerals or additional ions? to stick to batracio's solution- w/ changing the temperature?

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« Last Edit: 05.04.04 at 10:06:10 by Micha »

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dborca Ex Member	Re: Think Tank Reply #39 - 05.04.04 at 10:51:03 Quote: Alright, this is my last shot at this one: Electrolyze it? Hehehe! Nice shot! I believe pure H2O (no ions no minerals no nothing except H2O at perfect equilibrium) can't be electrolyzed. Besides, you can't elecrolyze it without electrodes, right? Which means sticking something into the water (ehm... yes, water... whatever).
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DenisF Senior Member Offline So fluffy it hurts Posts: 409 Israel Gender:	Re: Think Tank Reply #40 - 05.04.04 at 11:48:52 You people have waay too much time on your hands
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janskjaer

Ex Member

Re: Think Tank
Reply #41 - 05.04.04 at 16:11:38

Right, batracio was wrong.....to the question I was asking, that was not the answer that was needed. Maybe for an incorrect answer, but I was after a correct one. Roll Eyes

Answer:

(a) Add salt - this causes the water molecules to pack together more tightly and the water level will fall very slightly.

(b) Freeze it - e.g. by packing dry ice around the bottle, since ice expands.

This was the answer and the ONLY answer I was looking for! Please do not try to correct me, as this is the correct answer. I will ignore any claims trying to correct me on this. Wink

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« Last Edit: 05.04.04 at 16:13:31 by N/A »

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amp_man

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Re: Think Tank
Reply #42 - 05.04.04 at 22:00:27

Quote:

Hehehe! Nice shot! Grin

I believe pure H2O (no ions no minerals no nothing except H2O at perfect equilibrium) can't be electrolyzed. Roll Eyes

Besides, you can't elecrolyze it without electrodes, right? Tongue

Which means sticking something into the water (ehm... yes, water... whatever).

Yes, but he never said anything about not sticking anything in the water, but he did state that it was H₂O (and you're correct, pure H₂O will not electrolyze). Now I get to mess with wordings:

Quote:

(a) How could you make the H2O level fall without heating, moving the bottle or changing the amount of water inside?

Quote:

Answer:

(a) Add salt - this causes the water molecules to pack together more tightly and the water level will fall very slightly

Chemically speaking, this answer is also wrong. When pure table salt, NaCl, is added to water, it breaks down into Cl^- and Na⁺ ions, which then react with the water to form HCl, O₂, and Na⁺ ions, which are not natuarally found in water, so therefore you have changed the amount of water inside Tongue

Still, this is a much better answer than dropping the bottle Undecided

Quote:

(b) How could you make the H2O level rise under the same conditions and without putting anything else inside?

Quote:

(b) Freeze it - e.g. by packing dry ice around the bottle, since ice expands.

Batracio's answer was basically the same thing, except he was under the assumption that by changing the amount of "water" inside, you also meant not changing it into the ice form. So, this answer would also not work, since "under the same conditions", "changing the amount of water inside" is not allowed, and ice is not water, water is the liquid form.

Words are such fun to play around with Grin

EDIT:
Quote:

This was the answer and the ONLY answer I was looking for! Please do not try to correct me, as this is the correct answer. I will ignore any claims trying to correct me on this. Wink

lol, the truth is so often ignored Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: 05.04.04 at 22:01:36 by N/A »

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janskjaer

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Re: Think Tank
Reply #43 - 06.04.04 at 10:04:01

Quote:

Yes, but he never said anything about not sticking anything in the water, but he did state that it was H₂O (and you're correct, pure H₂O will not electrolyze). Now I get to mess with wordings:

Chemically speaking, this answer is also wrong. When pure table salt, NaCl, is added to water, it breaks down into Cl^- and Na⁺ ions, which then react with the water to form HCl, O₂, and Na⁺ ions, which are not natuarally found in water, so therefore you have changed the amount of water inside Tongue

Still, this is a much better answer than dropping the bottle Undecided

Batracio's answer was basically the same thing, except he was under the assumption that by changing the amount of "water" inside, you also meant not changing it into the ice form. So, this answer would also not work, since "under the same conditions", "changing the amount of water inside" is not allowed, and ice is not water, water is the liquid form.

Words are such fun to play around with Grin

EDIT:

lol, the truth is so often ignored Roll Eyes

Your playing with words! Grin

Accept it! The answer has been given to you, if salt has been added, how does that mean that I have added extra water!? Tongue

It's heartbreaking when some people don't accept a valid answer. Roll Eyes

amp_man, didn't you read my answer! Pack dry ice around the bottle!

And no, you don't get to mess with the wordings of the question, as there would be no question left to answer once modified! Tongue

CASE CLOSED.

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dborca

Ex Member

Re: Think Tank
Reply #44 - 06.04.04 at 11:16:52

Quote:

CASE CLOSED.

Whoa! I guess this makes you the holder of the absolute truth, then!

A friend of mine said "People who rant has nothing left to say".

I believe that particular riddle belongs to some other thread, named Think Tomb (or Think Tenebrae). I shall explain myself...

You asked batracio: Quote:

Because what happens if the temperature is already set to 4 degrees celcius?

Then I ask you: what if your water (ehm!) is already saturated with salt? You never said anything about the quality of water, now did you?

PS: another thing: Quote:

if salt has been added, how does that mean that I have added extra water!?

Make sure you add extra/super/mega dried salt, otherwise...

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« Last Edit: 06.04.04 at 11:23:39 by N/A »

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